Transcript
Brett McKay:
Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the AOM Podcast. It’s always been intimidating to enter a room where you don’t know everyone or anyone and to initiate conversation with people at a wedding, holiday party, or work event, but it’s never felt more potentially awkward and anxiety generating than in an age dominated by screen mediated interactions. We don’t get much practice mixing at social events and making small talk in real life.
Here to help us get more confident and comfortable in this area is Jeanne Martinet, author of The Art of Mingling, which is out in a newly updated edition. Jeanne last joined me on the podcast nearly a decade ago, and today she’s back to share why the ability to mingle is more important than ever and how to get better at it. We discuss why small talk is more valuable than you might think, and can not only lead to finding a potential romantic partner or lifelong friend, but it’s something worth doing for its own sake. Jeanne then shares practical tips you can put to use at your next social gathering or simply when you’re out and about. She explains how to identify people who are open to conversation, four ways to break the ice with them, as well as an opening line to avoid, how to keep a conversation going, how to gracefully extract yourself from an interaction that’s gone on too long, how to recover from putting your foot in your mouth, and more.
We end our conversation with how to find more opportunities to socialize and practice your mingling skills. After the show’s over, check out our show notes at awm.is/artofmingling.
All right, Jeanne Martinet, welcome back to the show.
Jeanne Martinet:
Glad to be here.
Brett McKay:
So you are the author of a book called The Art of Mingling. It was first published in 1992. We last talked about it in 2017, so this is almost 10 years ago. You got a new edition of the book out. What led you to coming out with the new edition of the book?
Jeanne Martinet:
Well, I mean, over the last 10, 15 years, digital addiction has gotten worse with social media and the way we communicate in general has led us all to be more isolated. The pandemic obviously accelerated this process greatly. People are becoming more and more isolated. 30% of Americans, I think it is, are working remotely since the pandemic. And then over the past couple of years, there were so many articles coming out that I saw that were about people are really recognizing that it’s a health issue, that people not having face-to-face social interaction is really not good for us. And the book was old enough that a lot of it needed to be updated anyway because the stories are old and I needed new examples.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. I mean, I’ve noticed this too just in the past 10 years in my own life and just living life. I think people have gotten bad at socializing. And it’s interesting because people crave it, they want it, but it’s almost like they forgot how to do it. And I think the pandemic just atrophied everyone’s social skills.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah. I mean, the mingling muscles, social muscles really did atrophy. Unlike when I first did it, when I first wrote the book so many years ago, I knew that people had mingle phobia. A lot of people had a fear of entering a room full of strangers. But within the last 10 years, people have really come up to me and said, “I need your book. I don’t know how to do this.” Especially young people. And they are aware that it’s like a thirst that they have and it’s funny to me, but people are at a loss sometimes.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. I mean, there’s this chart I saw the other day about people interacting socially, like in person. And before the pandemic was at this certain level, and then it dropped during the pandemic, of course, because everyone was sheltering at home, working from home. But then even after those restrictions were lifted, it just still stayed down. Everyone got comfortable just being by themselves hold up in their home and they’re not coming out.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah. It really reminds me of, there was a drought one summer in New York, and so people didn’t put water on the table for a while when you first came to restaurant. And then for years afterward, even though the drought was over, they still didn’t put the water out there. And that’s sort of what happened with the pandemic. I mean, people got used to it, that got comfortable, and they got really, really into their devices. I mean, during the pandemic, people started working in their pajamas and watching a lot of great stuff that they could stream on their computers and more and more emailing and Zooming, FaceTime, and everyone just got so dependent on that. And it’s really easy. It’s very easy to do that. And the hours go by and you feel like I’ve connected with the people. I’ve done a lot of communicating and yet it’s not feeding us the way. It’s like eating junk food or something instead of real food.
Brett McKay:
Yeah, that digital dependency, that was something you wrote a lot about in this edition of the book. We’re at this place where all of our communication is now intermediated by a screen of some sort.
Jeanne Martinet:
All of it. Most Americans spend 10 hours a day on screens, which is a lot of waking hours when really, if we had said that 20 years ago, that would be like a science fiction movie. I mean, it’s really a lot. Of course, the more you do that, the more you forget how to interact the other way. And people don’t even know sometimes. What I say is that people don’t realize that they actually have a need to mingle or be social face-to-face because they feel like they’re getting what they need from their devices and they’re not.
Brett McKay:
And they’re not. And they feel it too because I feel lonely. I feel isolated. I feel like I’m not connecting with people.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, they really don’t know how to fix that.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. Well, this is what your book’s all about. It’s about mingling. How do you define mingling?
Jeanne Martinet:
To me, mingling actually means moving around and talking to different people. So the movement about it and the varieties is kind of what it connotes to me. So at a medium size or large affair or a cafe or a bar, that means talking to people for 10 minutes and then moving on. You can still stop mingling at a party and have a deeper conversation. On the other hand, sometimes a 10-minute conversation can be extremely rewarding more than people would think. They’d be surprised.
Brett McKay:
Alright. So mingling, it’s very short, maybe a few minutes, and you’re moving on to other people. So typically you’re going to mingle at events, so like a wedding or a business networking event or something like that.
Jeanne Martinet:
Right. Or out in public, sometimes you can mingle if there’s a crowd at a park or you can mingle in line for something. There are places besides private parties where you can mingle, but it just means it’s basically about meeting people, about being open to meet new people. So I think small talk gets a bad rap because people just think it’s all about being superficial and it’s really about being open to new things.
Brett McKay:
Well, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people don’t mingle when they go to events. There’s a lot of reasons why people don’t mingle, but I think one of them is what you just said. Oh, it’s just small talk. It’s superficial. What’s your response to that? I mean, I guess your response is, well, no, it just opens you up to maybe someone you can have a deep conversation with.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah. I mean, in order to make the deep connections, first you have to get out there and meet people. I have a lot of intimate friendships, but I also do love to be out in the world interacting with strangers because you never know who you’re going to meet. It opens you up to new possibilities and new things. Every interaction you have face-to-face adds to the emotional tapestry of your life.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. What are some other benefits of mingling, you think?
Jeanne Martinet:
You get energy from people. I mean, I know it’s kind of what an extrovert would say, but I think it’s true of everyone that when you go to someplace where you’re interacting with people face-to-face and it’s not just your best friend, it makes you high. I mean, you get energy from the exchange with other people. I think that human beings need this. They need to be in community with other people and not just their spouse and their two best friends.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. People often make it out like introverts don’t need as much socializing or get as much out of it, but studies show that while introverts have more pre-party dread like, “Oh, I don’t want to go to this thing.” Once they’re there, introverts enjoy socializing just as much as extroverts. And both introverts and extroverts get tired after social events. Introverts just might need a little more solitary recovery. That’s true for me. I’m an introvert. I mean, I’d say I’m an introvert. I don’t think I am. I mean, I’m an ambiavert. I do like being around people and interacting because I come back and I’m feeling really good afterwards, but I do like to spend time by myself and kind of decompress after. It wears me out.
Jeanne Martinet:
I mean, I think most people are like that or a combination of the two, but I mean, some people say small talk is superficial, but it’s also like playing. If you start doing it more, it can just be a fun… It’s like any game, it’s like the tennis game or some game that you play with other people. It’s a fun thing.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. Mingling, you just can just do it for the sake of itself. I mean, some people think, “Well, I got to mingle so I can meet a potential romantic partner or make a new business contact.” And that can happen with mingling, but also you’re just saying just mingle because it’s fun.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah. Actually, the greatest success in mingling is if you put all those other goals second, your first goal should be to have a good time and to enjoy meeting new people and see it as an adventure. It’s kind of like people should think about it as when they’re traveling. When you’re traveling to a new country or a new city, you’re interested to see things, you want to experience new things, and that should be your attitude when you’re faced with any kind of social gathering where you don’t already know everybody well.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. I like the comparison you made to travel. You call it social travel. So other people are a realm of the unknown and it’s fun to explore the unknown. And then also you talk about too, I mean, one of the benefits of mingling and even just talking to strangers, people you don’t know, is if you’re feeling lonely, it can help. We had a guest on the podcast a while back ago, Jillian Sandstrom. She’s a professor of social psychology, and she talked about how talking to strangers just very briefly can really make you feel better just doing that.
Jeanne Martinet:
There’s no question about it. I’ve experienced this all day because I live in New York City, so I actually am lucky enough to be able to talk to strangers because when you’re waiting at the bus stop, at least me, I always talk to people when I’m waiting on the bus stop, and I can be in a bad mood or a little bit blue, and I can have a five-minute exchange with someone that just kind of boys me up. The sad thing is that 40% of adults will go for three days or more without a face-to-face conversation. And again, humans were not meant to be like that.
Brett McKay:
No, for sure. So let’s talk about what keeps people from mingling. One is the digital dependency. We talked about that. People are relying on their phones to communicate. Also, just people will have objections like, “It’s superficial.” What else do you think keeps people from mingling, even if they want to?
Jeanne Martinet:
Well, I think actually some people, they’re not just afraid that they want to have something to say, which is people are afraid they’re going to look stupid, get rejected, and they’re also afraid that they’re going to waste their time. They’re going to end up having to talk to somebody that is boring or they don’t want to talk to. People have gotten very lazy that way. It’s like the possibility that every moment is not what they can control is something that keeps people from getting out there. But again, you’ve got to take some risks in order to get the rewards. It’s like physical exercise. People need to practice.
Brett McKay:
Yeah. It is a muscle you have to exercise, and the more you do it, the better you get at it.
Jeanne Martinet:
And the better you feel. I mean, just like exercise, you don’t know it till you start doing it just like exercise. But when you do, you start understanding that it is really feeding your life.
Brett McKay:
And then as you talked about earlier, I think a lot of people, particularly young people who maybe came of age during the pandemic, they just don’t know how to do it because they never had to do it before.
Jeanne Martinet:
The most interesting thing during this process of this fourth edition is my team at St. Martin’s Press, they’re all Gen Z and they’re fascinated. And I actually had a launch party a couple days ago at my apartment and they came and they were so excited. They were practicing my techniques and they’re all really sick of the dating apps. They’re desperate for places and ways to do face-to-face mingling.
Brett McKay:
So what I love about your book is how tactical you get with how to mingle. I think a lot of people don’t mingle because they just don’t know what to do. What do I say? How do I break into a group? And you give people scripts that they can follow so they can get going with this and then eventually kind of figure things out on their own. So let’s talk about some of these tips. So first thing, say you go to a party and you’re like, “I want to mingle.” How do you figure out which group or which person is open to mingling?
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, that’s a great question. The thing I tell people to do is, first of all, you need to try to read people’s body language. So you walk into a room and there’ll be some groups that they’ve got their arms around each other, they’re laughing really loudly and they’re really into each other. You don’t necessarily want to go to those people first. You look for people with an open stance, their body language is kind of open. They may be glancing around. They’re not in a tight circle. Those will be easier to get to. Or I learned this one when I was watching my father mingling one time. He’s a musician and he immediately went up to this… We were at a party and he went up to this man and later on I said, “Why did you choose that man?” And he said, “Well, he was the only person here without a suit and a tie.” My father was a musician.
He never wore a suit and tie. So if you find somebody who’s dressed like you or kind of looks like your style, that also might be a good way to start. You don’t want to just do that, but a good way to start.
Brett McKay:
That’s a great one. And then you also talk about one thing that can help you break into groups or start mingling is help the host, kind of be the host assistant in a way.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah. I mean, it’s a trick, but if you offer to pass food especially, like you take a little tray of food and you offer to pass it amongst the guests, first of all, it’s easy to walk around because you have a job to do. Also, people will come to you because if you’ve got a food in your hand, that will attract people. And you also have easy conversation because you can talk about the food. You can also talk about how you know the host because you’re passing the food. Anyway, the only drawback to that is if you’re passing the food, you can’t actually eat it as well. You can’t stand there with a tray and eat off the tray yourself.
Brett McKay:
A trick I use whenever I go to any event somewhere else, even though I’m not the host, I try to think of myself as the host. I adopt a host mindset and I think, “How can I make this person feel comfortable and welcome? How can I make this person feel good?” And I’m like, “My job is to host here, so what can I do to help this person?” I don’t know. I mean, for some reason, just puts me in a more active mindset and makes me more open to and comfortable interacting with people.
Jeanne Martinet:
That is a great attitude to have, Brett. If more guests were like you, nobody would have any problems.
Brett McKay:
So if you see someone standing by himself looking like a loner, is that someone you should go up to? How do you know if you should approach them? Is it just looking at their body language?
Jeanne Martinet:
A technique that some people have teased me about because it sounds kind of mean, but there’s something I call practice your mingle on a wallflower. I mean, because if you’re really afraid and you’re worried about falling on your face, so to speak, and you see somebody else who looks awkward or like a loner, going up and speaking to them first is kind of a good way to practice. You don’t have to worry about going into the brightest star at the party and try to talk to them first. So there’s that. I mean, I think it’s good to… I sort of feel like you, when I go to a party, if I see someone standing alone, it’s an act of generosity to go up and talk to them because they might be feeling like, “What do I do here?” So it’s always good to help each other out.
Brett McKay:
Let’s say you show up to an event, it’s a party or something like that, and you’re like the first one there. Even though you tried to be purposely late by 10 minutes so this didn’t happen, you’re the only person there and there’s maybe one other person there. What do you do in that situation?
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah that can be very awkward. That’s what I call the thin room. And your job there is really to help the host again and help them feel better about what’s happening in case it’s the fact that no one has shown up. So definitely don’t turn around and walk out. Unfortunately, with that kind of situation, you should just try to help the host by helping to create a cozy, more intimate conversation. So maybe it was going to be starting out to be a mingling situation, but now it’s going to be four people sitting around a table having more interesting conversations. So you just have to help the host transfer it into a conversation between the three of you.
Brett McKay:
So you got to host the host in a way.
Jeanne Martinet:
You got to host the host and try to help the situation as much as possible.
Brett McKay:
What about a wing man? Can a wing man be useful in a mingling session?
Jeanne Martinet:
Oh, definitely. When you’re out mingling and your goal, even though I said you shouldn’t have goals, some people of course are going to go out and try to find their mate or at least a date. A wing man or woman can act as a scout for you or like a pre-screener. So if they’re at the same event, they can sort of help point out potential love interests for you. They can also rescue you. If you decide the person that you’re talking to might have looked good, but you find out that they’re not your cup of coffee by coming up and pretending to be your date. Or if you do find someone that you connect with, your wing can help keep you levelheaded about it. They can help get information as well as talking you up to the prospect, but they can also keep you from going overboard if you need to be. Maybe you shouldn’t go back home with that person right away or whatever.
Brett McKay:
I think a wing man too can just be helpful. Even if you’re not trying to look for a romantic partner, it just gives you… He’s like a side man you can kind of bounce stuff off of, and then hopefully that guy will bounce it off to the other people in the group.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah. I mean, of course, I was thinking about a wing man in terms of the romance, but there’s also a lot in the book about mingling with partners. And if you go to a party with your spouse or your best friend or your roommate, it is important. I have a lot of rules about, not rules, tips about the best way to do that. And I do say you should split up. Don’t go around as a couple when you’re with somebody that you’re best friend, because you’re not going to meet as many people that way. But then you can come back together every once in a while in the party and share information, help point out the trouble spots. Don’t go talk to that person over there. They’re too drunk or whatever. And that can be very helpful, but you shouldn’t go… A lot of people go to parties as couples and they wonder why they didn’t meet that many people.
Brett McKay:
I’ve noticed that. If I go to a party with my wife, I’ll just hang out with my wife. Or if I show up at a party, I’ll find someone that I know already and just hang out with that person the entire night.
Jeanne Martinet:
It’s easy to do that, but it’s better to try to branch out a little bit. You can always come back and do that. Every third mingle, you can go talk to your best friend again.
Brett McKay:
If you’re just talking to your best friend, you’re not mingling.
Jeanne Martinet:
No, not really.
Brett McKay:
You’re just having a conversation at someone else’s house or whatever. I think the thing that many people worry about with initiating small talk or starting a mingle session is the opening line.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yes.
Brett McKay:
What do I say? So what are the best ways to open a mingling session?
Jeanne Martinet:
Well, as you probably know, I have four basic approach techniques, four basic opening techniques. There’s the honest approach, which I love. There’s the sophistication test, the fade in and the flattery entree, and then there are other lines. But the honest approach is actually a good… If people don’t want anything fancy to do… I’ve done this a lot. It works in a room where you don’t know a lot of people. You can’t do it with a room where you know everybody. But if most of the people are strangers to you, you can go up to somebody and say, “Hi, I’m Jean Martinet. I don’t know a single soul here.” And when you do that, it really works because it makes you vulnerable and everyone’s been in that situation, so it bonds you to the person. And it’s surprisingly successful, even though it may seem like a pathetic thing to say to some people, but it really works well.
And the other thing that I love to do is the flattery entree, which is where if you find somebody that has great earrings or a wonderful hat or fabulous glasses, you can actually interrupt a group if you have a good flattery on hand. You just say, “Excuse me. I’m so sorry to interrupt, but those are the best glasses I have ever seen.” And then you’re in the group then. The rule for that is don’t flatter people on their body or their clothing except for accessories.
Brett McKay:
For guys, a go-to compliment for me is their watch. People thought about that, the watch they picked out, and there’s usually a story behind it.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, that is an excellent one, especially now that people don’t need watches anymore. So if they’ve got a watch on, you’re right, it’s a thing.
Brett McKay:
I’ve used that multiple times and it’s great because you ask, you’re like, “Hey, I love your watch. Where’d you get it? Tell me about it.” And then you’re in, you’re instantly in, and they’re just going to talk the ear off about the watch.
Jeanne Martinet:
There’s always the fade in, which is for entering a group of people who are already in full conversation. So everyone’s kind of done that. You stand around the periphery and you sort of edge in bit by bit. And then when there’s a place in the conversation where you can put your two cents in, you just kind of act like you’ve already been there. It’s tricky because eventually you do have to say something at some point. There’s also, there’s a whole bunch of opening lines that I have from the sort of risk-free to the more playful ones.
Brett McKay:
What are the risk-free ones that are a go-to?
Jeanne Martinet:
The risk-free opening lines are like, “So what was your day like today?” Or, “How do you know the host? This music reminds me of my childhood,” or whatever.
Brett McKay:
Okay.
Jeanne Martinet:
And then a more daring line is, “Okay guys, what’s the password here?” You can be a little more playful or “I’m tired of small talk. How about some big talk or at least medium?”
Brett McKay:
Yeah. Okay. There we go. Are there opening lines you should avoid?
Jeanne Martinet:
One of my strict or one of my admonitions, I should say, is that, and this is a mistake a lot of people make, is that you should not use what do you do for a living as an opening line. It’s fine to ask people, and you should ask people later, but as an opening line, it’s dangerous because you don’t really know what subject you’re opening when you do that. The person could be unemployed and not happy about it. The person could do something that you find really repellent or boring. And it also really reeks of you’re asking them, “Are you worth my time to talk to? How much money do you make? Who are you?” And it’s just too intrusive as an opening line.
Brett McKay:
Okay. So don’t ask people what they do for a living right off the bat. Maybe get there eventually.
Jeanne Martinet:
After you’ve talked to them for a couple minutes, then of course that would be natural to ask them later, especially if things are going well.
Brett McKay:
Well, okay. Let’s say that we’ve made our opening line successfully. We’re into the group. Maybe we complimented a guy’s watch and he tell us the story or maybe we did the fade in and we were able to chime in with something. How do you keep the conversation going? Because at this point you’re like the dog who finally caught the wheel. It’s like, oh man, what do I do now?
Jeanne Martinet:
Asking questions about the other person is good. How do you know the host? That’s always a good one, unless that was your opening line. But also, I always say observations are a good way to go. So you’re in the group and you look around the room and you say, “Oh my God, I can’t believe how much food there is,” or, “I can’t believe how many people are in this room. I can’t believe how noisy it is in here. I can’t believe I never knew this bar was here before,” or, “This is the coolest cafe ever,” or, “This reminds me of a cafe that I knew when I lived in Chicago.” So making an observation is good. And the thing about asking questions, which is a good thing to do after you’re in, asking questions of other people is good, but when you ask people questions, you also have to give information about you so that it helps enrich the exchange.
So for example, if you say, “How do you know the host?” When they answer, even if they don’t ask you how you know the host, you say it anyway. So you say, “Oh, that’s so interesting. I know the host because of blah, blah, blah.” And that creates a more of a back and forth. A good conversation should always be like a tennis match back and forth.
Brett McKay:
Yeah, I agree with that. It feels like a game of catch. I like asking questions, maybe in part because I do that for a living, but I’ve noticed that a lot of people aren’t really good at it. Most people don’t know how to ask questions. I’ll ask someone questions for half an hour and they don’t ask anything in return. And so I have to be like, “Okay, I ask something, they say something, and then I have to try to inject a little bit about myself into the conversation.”
Jeanne Martinet:
That’s why you have to be ready with when you ask a question and they answer, then you just have to start giving them information as if they’ve asked you a question. And that way it creates the back and forth that you want. And then after you’ve talked well, then you ask them another question so it’s not you just talking. So that’s a good thing. It takes a little practice, but that’s a good thing. It was so funny. One time I got interviewed by Steve Inskeep on NPR, and he was very surprised when I told him that, because we were practicing at a party, that we were doing a little practice thing, and he said, “What am I doing wrong?” I said, “Well, you interview people for a living, so all you’re doing is asking them questions and you need to also give back.”
Brett McKay:
Right. And you don’t want to make it feel like you’re interrogating people, like it’s an FBI interrogation.
Jeanne Martinet:
Right. It puts people more at ease if they don’t always have to be the one giving information.
Brett McKay:
But people do like getting asked questions.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah. You have to show you’re interested in them. There’s no question. Too much of the other of just talking about yourself is not good either.
Brett McKay:
And then also while you got this conversation going, you’re keeping things light. So if you’re making observations, you’re keeping it nice and light, talking about the weather, the food.
Jeanne Martinet:
Light doesn’t necessarily mean superficial. So even though you’re talking about something like, I don’t know, the color of a painting on the wall, it still can be of interesting and engaging conversation.
Brett McKay:
So another thing that’s changed since the last time we talked in 2017 is how politically charged everything has become. I think it started picking up in 2017. That’s when you really started seeing the beginnings. But now, any topic these days, you might be touching a third rail and you didn’t know it. How do you do that? How do you navigate mingling with that?
Jeanne Martinet:
Well, there’s a whole chapter on this in the new edition because I think it’s so necessary now. As you say, we’re living in what I call the powder keg era. No matter where you are, you step on a mine. No matter how strongly you feel about anything or what side you’re on, you don’t want to get into a fight at your cousin’s wedding reception. There’s a time and a place for that. Most of these social situations, you just don’t want to be in a fight. One of the techniques I describe that people can use is something I call testing for friend, foe, or fanatic. So there are lines in the book, and as you pointed out, my book is very practical. It sounds a little nerdy, but I have very practical advice in here. There’s sample lines for testing for friend, foe or fanatic, for example, you say to somebody, “Did you read the New York Times today?” Now, if you’re talking to a fanatic who’s on the right side of things, they might say something like, “I never touched that rag,” or, “I never read that rag.” So right away, you know where you stand.
There’s a lot of medium ways to answer that question, but if you have a violent reaction, then you know, okay, we can’t talk politics. You don’t only want to talk to friends. In other words, a foe, quote unquote, somebody on the opposite side of politics from you can be fine to talk to as long as they’re not fanatical about it, which means that they immediately get angry. Fanatics have an angry line going in their head on both sides, and so the minute you touch the wire, they’re off, and that’s no fun at a party, so I have ways to get around that. The other thing I tell people is to try to stay focused on personal experiences rather than ideas. For example, if someone brings up recent extreme weather, you can talk about the famous snowstorm from your childhood or something instead of climate change.
Brett McKay:
So mingling requires you to jump from one group to another, one person to another. It’s not like you’re just stopping having a 20-minute conversation. I’ve had this issue happen to me when I’ve gone to events where I’m mingling and then somehow this person just gloms onto me and they just keep going on and on. I’m like, “I got to get away from this person.” Not because they’re annoying or anything. It’s just like, “Well, I want to talk to other people.” Yeah. So how do you escape someone who just won’t let you escape?
Jeanne Martinet:
There are 12 exit maneuvers in the book because this is a major… As I said, one of the reasons people don’t like to go to parties is they are afraid of this particular thing. The easiest one is the buffet bye-bye and other handy excuses, which is where you just say, “I’ve got to go get a drink.” But people will follow you. Sometimes people will follow you to that. So the best one for that is called the sellout, which is to say, “Excuse me, I have to make a phone call.” And because it’s not polite to make a phone call at the party, they know that you have to be alone for that, and then you have to actually go somewhere for a second, and then when you come back into the fray, you go to someone else.
Brett McKay:
Oh, so this is an interesting point. One point you make throughout the book is that good mingling requires a bit of white lies, a bit of pro-social deception, we’ll call it that.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yes. That is one of the five survival laws of mingling, which is that it’s okay to tell a lie. I mean, this is not about lying on your taxes or lying about cheating on your wife. This is just white lying, which is a really important part of our society, societal rules that some people have forgotten because everybody wants to be their authentic selves. But it’s about saving people’s feelings. It’s partly about what you want to do, but it’s a lot about not hurting other people’s feelings because you could easily just say, “Okay, I’m done talking with you. I’ve got to go talk to somebody else.” That’s not polite. So you have to have some subterfuge involved.
Brett McKay:
Yeah, you don’t want to say, “You’re really boring. Goodbye.”
Jeanne Martinet:
Exactly. “Have we been talking all this time? Sorry, bye.” There’s another technique that everyone uses, but it sounds mean, but it’s very common that I call the human sacrifice, which is where if you know somebody else at the party who happens to be walking by, you grab that person and you say, “Have you met so-and-so?” And then as soon as their eyes meet, you can leave. If you do it within five seconds, you don’t even have to say goodbye once they are interacting.
Brett McKay:
I think a good one, if you don’t want to use any subterfuge, is just to break things off in a kind of deprecating way. So you’re like, “Well, I know I’ve monopolized so much of your time this evening and I know there are a lot of other people you want to go and talk to, so I’ll let you go mingle. It was nice chatting.” Because a lot of the time you both might like each other and you’re enjoying the conversation, but there are other people you want to talk to, but neither one of you, you don’t want to be the one to break it off because it just feels impolite. So it’s like you’re doing something for yourself by giving them an out, but you’re doing them a service too.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, exactly. It is true that lots of times they might even feel the same way, even though it seems like they’re going on forever.
Brett McKay:
When you’re in a group, I guess you could do the Irish goodbye, the fade out where you’re just kind of like –
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, the fade out is the reverse of the fade in. You absolutely can do that. That’s easy to do if there’s more than a few people or more than two people anyway.
Brett McKay:
Let’s say you start your opening line and you start a little conversation, mingle session, and you make some kind of faux pas, you put your foot in your mouth. How do you recover from that?
Jeanne Martinet:
I myself am guilty of that, I guess because it’s like I’m an expert skier or something. I break my leg a lot. There are several things you can do. You can choose to do what I call the faux pas wa, which is basically just ignore it because maybe it’ll just go… People probably aren’t going to be focusing on it as much as you. It depends on what kind of faux pas. You can also confess and dwell on it, which is usually my choice. I can’t believe I did that. I’m so embarrassed. And usually people will make you feel better, make fun of it. Or you can use storytelling as a healing technique, which is a little bit more of a fancy maneuver. But if you have a good story for this, it works pretty well. And what it is is that you say, I can’t believe I did that, but it’s not as bad as the time I, and it should be about you, not about somebody else.
The time that you did something funny. I mean, hopefully it’s not too gross or anything, but something funny that will take people’s mind away from what you just did and it shows that you’re a good sport and you’re able to make fun of yourself. And it also is a good story. So it’s a fun anecdote.
Brett McKay:
I think you can use that tactic too if you see someone else make a faux pas. They put their foot in their mouth, you can help them save some face and take the attention off them by sharing your own embarrassing story.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yes, definitely. Definitely. I encourage people to be what I call faux pacifists because helping people out of that is a really good thing to do and you can certainly use that. That storytelling as a healing technique is perfect for that.
Brett McKay:
I think another thing to make mingling work is not only think about how to initiate mingling, but also be receptive to it. If you see someone making an effort to put themselves out there like, “Hey, this person, they’re putting themselves out there. I’m going to mingle with you. I’m going to try to help you have a good mingle session.”
Jeanne Martinet:
That is always the way to go. That kind of energy will come back to you tenfold.
Brett McKay:
We typically think of mingling at a cocktail party or at a wedding or something like that, but you say you can mingle anywhere. I mean the grocery line, you mingle during the grocery line?
Jeanne Martinet:
I mean, that’s what I do. Talking to strangers is why I moved to New York City. Every 10 second interaction I have with a fellow human being adds to my day. It adds to the fabric of your life. Connection is king. If you’re out on the sidewalk, you’re waiting for the light to turn. I don’t know. I’m a little extreme at this, but I mean, waiting for a bus in line for anything at a store, trying on clothing, shopping for computers in the Apple store, you don’t want to just go up to people willy-nilly, but you make eye contact. I was waiting for the bus on the way back from the theater and I could see that another guy’s waiting for the bus had a program in his hand. So we started talking about the theater. We got on the bus. We talked the whole 40 blocks or 30 blocks home, and it turned out he was this famous actor who is now he’s old, but it was a fascinating conversation and it made me happy for the next day because it was so fun.
Brett McKay:
Okay. So look for opportunities to mingle throughout the day. I’m trying to think where I like to mingle. I mean, you can mingle if your kids play a sport and you’re on the sidelines watching your kids, that’s a great time to mingle.
Jeanne Martinet:
Definitely. That’s a really good one. There are all kinds of options for talking to people. One of my best friends I met on jury duty.
Brett McKay:
Oh, wow.
Jeanne Martinet:
Because I mingled.
Brett McKay:
So you guys were in the jury pool and…
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, we did jury pool, waiting forever. It’s boring. Most people are just on their phones and why not talk to people? All kinds of people are in the jury room. In New York City, you can’t get out of it anymore, so everyone’s down there.
Brett McKay:
Okay. So get on jury duty if it’s a mingle session. Is there any follow up you should do after you mingle? What’s your thoughts on that.
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I like to… People still actually, weirdly, if it’s a business thing, people still have business cards, which not everyone does, but I always take people’s cards and then I try to follow up with them. If it’s a business thing, I follow up on LinkedIn. It all depends on what kind of party it is. Most people, if it’s a social thing, and especially if it’s young people, you have their phone numbers and you text them. I even give people, not that they necessarily need them, but I have sample text follow-up lines in the book from the more bland, “Nice to meet you last night,” to, “Hey, I’m mad at you. My stomach still hurts from laughing so hard.” You can play around with your follow-up line. A lot of people would prefer email. If somebody gives you the email address, you use email, but it all depends on what kind of party it is and who it is that you’re mingling with.
Brett McKay:
And sometimes you don’t follow up. It’s just like you had a good mingle with somebody and then you move on with your life.
Jeanne Martinet:
Oh yeah. You don’t have to follow up. I mean, lots of times it’s the party and you had fun and whatever. Also, lots of times what will happen is you’ll have this great conversation with someone at the event or at the wine tasting at your local bar or whatever, and you think, “Wow, this is going to be my friend.” It turns out they’re not really interested. You try and follow up and it doesn’t work. You have to be ready for that because more often than not, that’s going to happen. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t have a great conversation with you and it wasn’t still a valuable thing to do. It’s just that that doesn’t often happen. I mean, it doesn’t always happen.
Brett McKay:
Unrequited friendship. Then also, if you do want to follow up with something, yeah, you give different scripts you can use for like, “Yeah, I really want to connect. I thought we hit it off. I want to talk more,” to, “Hey, I just had a good conversation and we can keep in touch.”
Jeanne Martinet:
Yeah, you can just say, “It was great to talk to you,” and just throw that out there. It requires no real response, but they can response. It’s an opening.
Brett McKay:
Do you have any ideas about this? Because a lot of people, young people who are craving this social interaction, where can they go to mingle? I mean, maybe they’re not getting invited to weddings or cocktail parties or whatever, because they’re just starting from square one. They have no social network yet, but they want to establish a social network.
Jeanne Martinet:
I know. I think what they need to do is look for, in their local, in their area, obviously there’s going to be cafes and wine stores, restaurants that have events and try to find out when there’s special events, just show up there. Go with a friend if they don’t want to go by themselves and try to find out who else is there. People have to get back into the habit of joining things, like join groups and sign up for things and go to more lectures and places where there’s going to be some social component to it. It’s not as easy as it was because people don’t… I have parties, but most people don’t have parties at their houses anymore. But I also really encourage people to do so. It’s a little hard in New York City, nobody has any space here, but to have people over and don’t just invite your four best friends to watch the football game.
Have 20 people to your house and make a thing, make a game night. You just have to go back into the old fashioned things.
Brett McKay:
We had a guy on the podcast who wrote a book called The Two Hour Cocktail Party, and he has this whole idea of hosting cocktail parties and you set a hard limit. They’re only two hours long and you invite just a wide variety of people.
Jeanne Martinet:
I just had that party two nights ago. That’s exactly the party I had at my house. It was from six to eight. I invited 60 people and it was great. Everybody had a great time. A lot of people met people they didn’t know. Half of them knew half the people. That’s the best combination is if you know half the people there and you don’t know half the people, that’s the most fun.
Brett McKay:
I like the idea of just the two hour party because I think a lot of times people don’t go to parties because they’re thinking, “Oh geez, I go and it’ll just keep going on and on. How am I going to get out of it?” And you’re just like, “No, it’s over at 8:00.”
Jeanne Martinet:
No, because that’s the way it always used to be. I mean, in the olden days, that was the cocktail party and it is why it worked so well. They were always two hours long and I’m glad that somebody else is writing about it and it’s coming back.
Brett McKay:
All right. So put yourself out there, start going to events, and if there aren’t any events, start hosting them.
Jeanne Martinet:
Exactly.
Brett McKay:
Well, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
Jeanne Martinet:
Well, they can go to my website, jeannemartinet.com. And in spite of all my protestations of how I hate social media, I am on social media, they can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, X, or TikTok, even though I’m new on TikTok, but I’m there.
Brett McKay:
All right. Well, Jeanne Martinet, thanks for your time. It’s been a pleasure.
Jeanne Martinet:
Thank you so much, Brett.
Brett McKay:
My guest here is Jean Martinet. She’s the author of the book, The Art of Mingling. It’s available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about her work at our website, jeanmartinette.com.
