Podcast #1,015: Boots, Tents, Sleeping Bags, and More: How to Choose and Use Outdoor Gear

A fair amount of gear is involved in making a camping or backpacking trip a success, and choosing that gear can be a little intimidating as there are lots of options, and it’s expensive to boot.

Here to offer some tips on selecting gear and getting the most out of it is Craig Caudill, an avid outdoorsman, the director and lead instructor of the Nature Reliance School, and the author of Ultimate Wilderness Gear: Everything You Need to Know to Choose and Use the Best Outdoor Equipment. Today on the show, Craig and I discuss some things to know when purchasing things like boots, tents, sleeping bags, and more, and we offer some specific recommendations as to the gear that’s worked for us respectively. Craig also offers tips on using outdoor equipment, including how to dry wet boots without damaging them, whether you should put a tarp under your tent, what to do if you get hot and sweaty or cold in your sleeping bag, a hack for sleeping more comfortably on the ground, and the best kind of knife for an outdoorsman to carry.

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Brett McKay: Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. A fair amount of gear is involved in making a camping or backpacking trip a success, and choosing that gear can be a little intimidating as there are lots of options and it’s expensive to boot. Here to offer some tips on selecting gear and getting the most out of it is Craig Caudill, an avid outdoorsman, the director and lead instructor of the Nature Reliance School, and the author of Ultimate Wilderness Gear: Everything You Need to Know to Choose and Use the Best Outdoor Equipment. Today on the show, Craig and I discuss some things to know when purchasing things like boots, tents, sleeping bags, and more, and we offer some specific recommendations as to the gear that’s worked for us, respectively. Craig also offers tips on using outdoor equipment, including how to dry wet boots without damaging them, whether you should put a tarp under your tent, what to do if you get hot and sweaty or cold in your sleeping bag, a hack for sleeping more comfortably on the ground, and the best kind of knife for an outdoorsman to carry. After the show’s over, check out our show notes at aom.is/outdoorgear.

All right, Craig Caudill, welcome to the show.

Craig Caudill: Oh, Brett, thank you for having me on. It’s a pleasure.

Brett McKay: So you are a backcountry skills expert and an instructor. So, you teach people about wilderness survival. How do you end up doing that as a career?

Craig Caudill: Well, it’s kind of a wild path to where I am now, but I started out as a kid, like a lot of people my age. I’m in the mid 50s now, and I was one of those kids where my mom said, “Can you just go outside and play for a while or do something?” And got to explore creeks and woods and farms and all that sort of fun activity. So, just being outside was a very natural thing for me back then, and I’ve just stayed that way. My family is really heavily involved in camping, and my dad and I were active, very avid hunters and fishermen and that kind of stuff, doing all the outdoor activities of stewardship and taking care of ourselves. But the thing that kind of started pushing me off in a different direction, I did this with my family, too, was we also did period-correct reenacting, like pre-Revolutionary War era reenactments where we dressed up like Daniel Boone and lived in teepees and shelters and sustained ourselves through foraging and hunting and all the things that happen in a reenactment where you’re basically recreating history.

So that’s a little bit different than what path most people have taken as an outdoors person, I think, and it kind of prompted me later on in my young 20s to complete what I’ve commonly referred to as 230-day sabbaticals. I wanted to test myself is what I wanted to do. And I went out in the woods with nothing but a knife and I existed two different periods of time for 30 days. And quite frankly, it led to real, I don’t know what else to call it, but a profound personal growth and development. I learned a lot about what I can do well. I learned a lot about what I didn’t do very well at all. And I’ve been spending a good deal of my time from that point forward trying to develop those skills. I attended myself a survival school, a friend of mine who has another survival school. I didn’t realize that people passed on skills the way I do with him now, in a survival school. I thought all these outdoor skills, hunting and fishing, and fire building and rubbing two sticks together and all the stuff that we do, I thought that was just a family lineage type of thing. And I went to this school, found out what was happening at that school was all the stuff that I’ve been doing for fun, basically my entire life.

So in 2006, I started what we now call Nature Reliance School, that’s my school, I’m the director and lead instructor. And so we’ve been teaching survival and tracking, both animal and man tracking, land navigation, nature immersion type coursework since that time. And now later on in life, in the last 10 years or so, I’ve started going after and enhancing, I don’t know if it’s the right way to say it, but basically, my academic understanding of the outdoors. I became a certified master naturalist. I’ve gone through some wildlife habitat and forest stewardship coursework just to basically understand better what’s going on in the outdoors so that I can both steward it and teach other people about it.

Brett McKay: That’s fantastic. So in the instruction that you do, you’re doing some of the primitive skills stuff, the Daniel Boone skills, but you also teach people, you incorporate how they can use modern gear in their outdoor pursuits as well.

Craig Caudill: Yeah, absolutely. Since 2006, our motto has been where practical meets natural. So, it’s not just living off the land and making bow drill fire, hand drill fire with a couple of sticks. It’s also learning how to use a lighter correctly and how to pack your pack and what kind of packs to get. All the things that go along with water, whether it be filtration or purification, all those things and how to use modern gear, because that’s where most of us are, is in the modern world we don’t necessarily want to reenact history, we don’t want to preserve it, a lot of people do. And we do have instructors that come in and teach with us some of those things that I teach as well. But we also try to appeal to those that just want to be outside. And I do everything I can to help them get what they need to, to be able to do that safely and enjoy themselves.

Brett McKay: So you spent pretty much all your adult life outdoors, and in the process you’ve had the opportunity to test out different kinds of outdoor gear. And I think a lot of people who have an interest in getting outside, backpacking, backcountry hunting, things like that. It can be easy to get overwhelmed by gear selection because there’s just so much out there nowadays. I mean, I imagine like 30 years ago it probably wasn’t overwhelming because you just had the Coleman white light. That was it. But now there’s so many options. It can get expensive. Outdoor equipment can get expensive, so you’re afraid to make the wrong purchase. So what I want to do today for our listeners is do a deep dive into outdoor gear so our listeners can get ready for their next outing.

And in your book, you talk about three general factors to keep in mind when you’re buying gear, personal experience, budget, and geography. And we’re gonna talk about these as we go along. You also recommend trying out gear first by borrowing it from friends or looking for an outdoor club nearby in your town, so you can see if you like a particular item or even like a particular outdoor pursuit before you start dropping tons of money to buy gear. But let’s dive into specifics and wanna talk about the real foundation of any outing, and that’s what goes on your feet. So let’s talk about hiking boots. What should people consider when purchasing a pair of hiking boots?

Craig Caudill: When I wrote this book that you and I are discussing, Ultimate Wilderness Gear, I interviewed two different podiatrists on just basically what would they tell me about getting hiking shoes? I know what kind of answer I’m gonna get if I go to a store and say, “Hey, tell me what I need as far as hiking shoes and boots and things that go along with it.” But I wanted to understand from a podiatrist, what do they recommend? And one of the things that kind of jumped out at me talking to those folks was that they called it memory. Like our feet have a certain way that they like to fit inside of a shoe, and they get formulated for that shoe. And so, for me, like, I wear a lot of Merrells, and Merrells feel really good on my feet, and I was wearing Merrells before they were cool and all that, I’ve been wearing them for 30 years. It’s been there. My feet like them. And so a friend of mine that I was training at the time, he had a really high end boot, and he’s like, “Man, these are the greatest boots I’ve ever had in my life.” I got them, and man, my back hurt, my feet hurt, my knees hurt, my hips hurt. They just didn’t work for me.

And discussing that with a podiatrist, that’s where that memory comes into play. So it’s not the best thing to get a recommendation from a friend on, “Hey, this shoe works for me.” Other than the fact that it lasts a long time. But the style and the fit, you need to go to a store, and I’m a big fan of going to small outdoor stores, not the big box stores where somebody’s basically making minimum wage to sell you a pair of shoes. Go to a place where there’s a small mom-and-pop shop, and usually in those types of stores, you’ve got somebody in the store that will nerd out on shoes. They know everything. They can tell you on shoes, and so they’ll help you with that. And so they’ll listen to you, they’ll take your information, and then they’ll try to find a shoe that fits for you. And a big part of that is being able to wear the shoes in the store, which most of the small shops will be able to do that for you. Have an incline where you can walk up a hill, down a hill, some sort of steps or something, where you can walk up and down and find the fit, because walking downhill is different than walking uphill, and your feet feel differently in a pair of boots. And so that’s gonna be critical.

Brett McKay: No, that’s great advice. I’m a big proponent, too, of going to small mom-and-pop outdoor shops. The one that I like, I think we’ve already given the shout-out before on the podcast, but it’s a shop out of my hometown of Edmond, Oklahoma, called Native Summit and small place on the down… On the main strip there in town. But they’re just… They’re really knowledgeable. The people that work there, they are actually, they are avid outdoorsman, they are backpacking and so they can definitely help you out and they got the shoes. And I love that tip you have in the book about, whatever shoe or boot you go with, walk around with it in the store and then a lot of this stores they got that incline, because something that I’ve noticed in my own experience as you said, “Going uphill is completely different from going downhill.” And I had a bad experience with a pair of not so good fitting boots going on the downhill end of my trip. And so my toe kept sliding in to the front. And my toe nails ended up falling off.

Craig Caudill: Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s bad. That’s not good. Don’t do that, Brett.

Brett McKay: Yeah, I don’t recommend doing that.

Craig Caudill: And I’m also a big fan, and a lot of people see me out doing some of the things that I do. And I wear a pair of just regular sneaker, tennis shoe type shoes quite a bit in the outdoors because they’re comfortable. I like them. They’re not necessarily hardcore hikers. If I’m gonna do something underpacked, like I ruck in the mornings for exercise, I have my hiking boots on then, because I’m going up and down hills here in Kentucky, and I’ve got a pack on and the stuff that goes along with it. So I want a little bit more security there. But general, just going out and doing a day hike or walking through the woods and studying trees or whatever it is that I’m doing that day, that’s I’ll typically just have a pair of tennis shoes on.

Brett McKay: Yeah. What are your thoughts? I know a lot of companies have been putting out trail sneakers. So they’re like a sneaker, they don’t have the high top of a hiking boot, but the tread is like a hiking boot. And a friend of mine the other day told me they’re seeing them even on through hikers.

Craig Caudill: Yeah, those are great. I’ve actually got two really good friends that have hiked the AT, the Appalachian Trail, in those types of shoes. They didn’t wear any high top shoes of that nature at all, didn’t wear boots. They just wore those shoes and were incredibly comfortable. It’s a long trip right there. Incredibly comfortable in those shoes. Again, if I’m going under a load with a pack on, I’ll probably have something that’s helped secure the bottom of my foot a little bit better. But other than that, the tennis shoes, those type of trail shoes work great for me.

Brett McKay: Any advice on breaking in your hiking shoe or boot?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, I think a big part of that is to go on short hikes. Really short hikes. You don’t want to put on a brand new pair of boots and then hit the trail and go 10, 15, 20 miles. That’ll be problematic. If you’re wearing an all leather boot, a good mountaineer friend of mine recommended, “Hey, Craig, just get in a creek and walk with your all leather boots and let them get soaking wet right as you get them and let that boot form fit around your foot drying as you’re walking.” And that helps quite a bit. Another thing is just to get out and walk through a neighborhood, walk on a day hike, do something where you’re breaking them in, start a mile here, do two miles later, do five and make sure that they’re gonna work for you. Because again, as you found out, and I have too, I’ve had similar experiences where I learned lessons the hard way. You don’t want to find out that that boot’s not gonna work 15 miles in. And so you wanna break them in slowly, that’s for sure. And be in, and know what you’ve got on your feet before you head out.

Brett McKay: Another thing you do in this book, Ultimate Wilderness Gear. In the sections where you talk about what gear to buy, you also provide like little hacks, tips to get the most out of it. And one you have in the section about shoes is, how to dry your hiking boots out if they get wet when you’re out on the trail. So, how do you do that?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, that’s one of them things that the folks that come to Nature Reliance School, I’m fond of fire. I use fire a lot. So it’s one of those things you want to avoid with your footwear because most people will take their shoes and sit them right next to the fire and then sit back and get to talking and not paying attention. And then the synthetic materials and the leather dries out so quickly that they’re just not gonna be effective moving forward.

Brett McKay: Or they melt.

Craig Caudill: Or they melt, yeah. I’ve had that happen as well. When I was a kid, I had a pair of shoes that I put them right next to the fire and the whole bottom of the shoe melted off in the fire at night. My uncle let me learn a real valuable lesson that night. The hard way, I had to hike out barefooted. But that’s definitely one of the things that can happen. So we’re all about slowly drying your shoes out. One way to do that is to take the insole out and because that’s gonna hold a lot of moisture and dry it, air dry it around the campfire. Don’t necessarily have to put it on the fire, but around you. And then another thing is just take some dry material and stuff it in the boots and it’ll soak up a lot of moisture and then discard it once it gets damp, and then put more in there, whether it’s dry grass or something of that nature. And it’s gonna pull a lot of moisture out of the inside of the boot. Next morning, when you’re ready to rock and roll again, stick those insoles back in and you’ll have as dry a boot as you can get without damaging them by putting them by the fire.

Brett McKay: So, another thing you recommend doing, if you’re going backpacking or maybe you’re doing some car camping and you’re just hanging out around the camp, you’re not actually on the trail, is to have a camp shoe. Something else you put on that’s not your hiking boot. So, what do you recommend for a camp shoe?

Craig Caudill: Find the one that works for you, everybody. My way is not the way of doing things. It is a way of doing things. But I love helping people find their way of doing things. That’s my perspective. But I love Crocs.

Brett McKay: You’re a Croc guy?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, I am a Croc guy, man. I love my Crocs. Take off those stinky boots where I’ve been mantracking or backpacking, whatever it is that I’m doing, and put those things on I feel good. So you can… Crocs dry really quickly so you can get into a creek or pond or whatever it is you might need to do and get your feet damp moisture and wash them off if you need to. They dry really quickly. You can put them on and off. You can put the strap on the back, put them in four-wheel drive mode, and go up a hill if you need to, in short jaunts. And they just, they’re just great shoes. They’re easy to clean. They are very lightweight, which is great for backpackers. That way you take your regular shoes off and/or while you’re wearing your regular shoes down the trail, your Crocs are hanging off the back. It’s not gonna weigh you down. They’re just a fantastic shoe.

Brett McKay: And they’re durable. So, I got a funny story about Crocs. So this past December, we went to Hawaii for the first time as a family.

Craig Caudill: Nice.

Brett McKay: And we did some hikes on Maui. There’s a national park there, and there’s a volcano. And we drove out there, and we get there, and when we get out there, we realize our kids, they didn’t bring any sneakers. They were wearing their Crocs, and that’s all they had.

Craig Caudill: Oh, wow.

Brett McKay: And we’re like, “Oh, my gosh. It’d be too late to drive all the way back to the condo.” So, okay. They hiked this giant volcano. It was a long hike, in Crocs, and I’m like, “How are your feet?” And they’re like, “Oh, it feels great.” It was comfortable. And it was funny we were on the trail, and there were these hikers who were just decked out in all the synthetic. I mean, they just look like they were just gonna be out there for three days, and they were giving our kids the side eyes like, “You’re just wearing Crocs?” And like, “Yeah, the Crocs is working.”

Craig Caudill: Yeah, they’re crushing it, too, weren’t they?

Brett McKay: Yeah, they were.

Craig Caudill: I mean, kids are so resilient, man. I love hanging out with kids in the woods. They’re resilient little individuals, and they can handle Crocs like a boss.

Brett McKay: All right, let’s talk about tents because tents can get really expensive, especially backpacking tents because they’re lightweight. Anything we should consider when purchasing a tent?

Craig Caudill: You can get really expensive with tents, but you can take it from me. I had a tent that I used for 25 years that was basically a very inexpensive Kelty tent, and the only reason I’m not still using it is I loaned it to somebody and they didn’t return it. I would still be using that thing. But it requires that you take good care of your equipment, meaning whenever you use it, get it back, when you get back home, set it up, let it air dry. Make sure it’s completely dry. There’s no moisture, so you’re not building any bacteria up in it and mold and stuff of that nature, and setting it up and taking it down, you just take good care of it, and those things will last quite a long time.

Brett McKay: The tent that I like for backpacking is the Hubba Hubba, the two-person. It’s so easy to set up and take down, especially at nighttime. Here’s a question I always have whenever I’m setting up a tent. Is it necessary to put on the rainfly every single time you set up a tent?

Craig Caudill: No. No. I’ve spent a lot of time without a rainfly on. I like seeing the stars when I’m laying there. That’s one of the reasons I get out. So, I like doing it that way. What I do in that process, though, is I’ll, if it’s a four-point tent, I’ll clip in two of the clips of my rainfly in case a surprise shower comes up or something of that nature, and I can get out and put it back on. And there’s been numerous times in summertime where I want the dew to hit me in the middle of the night and cool me off a little bit because it’s 95 degrees outside and humidity is terrible. So, getting a little moisture on your skin is gonna help cool me off and so I don’t sleep with a rainfly on. It’s just one of those things, for sure, that you have to make that decision based upon your experience, what the weather’s doing, what… If you’re expecting rain or not, that’s for sure. Because tents will hold a lot of heat in with that rainfly on. So it’s great in cold weather, right? But in hot weather, if you’re gonna spend more than just the winter months outside, then you’re gonna try to do things to keep yourself cool. And that’s one way you can do it, is just remove it and let it go.

Brett McKay: Another habit I got into when I was a Boy Scout was setting a tarp underneath your tent. Do you have to do that these days, or can you set them up without the tarp underneath it?

Craig Caudill: I use a tarp still just because if the bottom of the tent gets damaged or scratched or cut or something of that nature, then now your tent is suspect. And so I usually use a tarp, you know, I’ll clear the ground from wherever I want to set it up, and then I’ll set the tarp up. But one thing I do love to point out about tarps under a tent setup is that most people I see, because I see a lot of people coming to our classes, and they’ll set up any number of ways. And one of the things I always do is I walk around and chat with them and try to help them learn things from the experiences, and our other instructors do the same. But one of the things I see that’s real common is to take a tarp that’s really big and spread it out and set your tent on top of it, and you basically got a lot of tarp sticking out from the outside of the bottom layer, you know, the bottom footprint of your tent. That’s not good, because if it does rain, then that’s basically a guttering system. It’s going to seep water in underneath of you. And so when you do set a tarp up, it should be as close proximity to the bottom of the tent as possible. And some companies even make what they call a footprint, which is going to fit directly underneath the tent that you’ve purchased.

Brett McKay: Well, another question about tents that I have, because I’ve had this happen a few times, yet sometimes you have to set up a tent in the rain. Any advice on there to make it less miserable?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, keep the rainfly on the tent when you stuff it, and definitely stuff it, those things are called stuff sacks because you stuff things in them, you don’t roll them up or fold them up and put them in there. One of the things that causes the waterproofing layer on the tent to start to break down is putting folds in a tarp or a tent or whatever, because that stretches that fiber at that fold. So the more you can stuff something in a stuff sack, the better off you’re going to be. And stuff it with that… I usually like to stuff it with the bottom of the tent down in the bag first. And so as I’m pulling it out, I’m pulling it out with the rainfly on top. That way everything that I’m pulling out is coming out, and it’s going to have at least the rainfly on top of it, is not going to be, for example, the bottom of the tent where I’m getting ready to put my sleeping bag or something of that nature.

Brett McKay: I love that tip. We’ve been talking about tents, but you prefer to sleep in hammocks. Why is that?

Craig Caudill: I’ve gone through stages. I go back and forth. Hammocks are fantastic. I love hammocks. But I’m a big fan of what’s referred to as asymmetrical hammocks. Your typical $40 hammock, for example, your whole body is going to be in that banana shape. And that’s okay if you can just lay there and not move. Your shoulders get pinned in on you, that ends up not providing very good sleep. So asymmetric hammocks are those that you basically sleep across the center line of the hammock, and they’re designed for that purpose. So even, even side sleepers like me, I can sleep on my side in a hammock. But it has to be an asymmetric hammock. And with a good pad in there, that’s some of the best sleep I’ve gotten in the outdoors. It’s very comfortable. It, you know, keeps rain off you rather easily. For me here in Kentucky, it’s really easy because there’s rocks and hills everywhere. There’s also trees. So it makes it easy for me to be able to set a hammock up. Don’t have to worry about if I’m on a 45-degree slope. I can still set that hammock up and I’ll sleep fine right there.

Brett McKay: So the hammocks you’re talking about, it’s kind of like a tent. It’s got like a covering over on the top, right?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, exactly. So they’ll have a tarp. Some of them are integrated, some are removable. Hennessy is a great company. That’s what I use. Warbonnet is another company that I’ve used in the past. Great hammocks. Great asymmetric hammocks. They work really well.

Brett McKay: We’re going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. And now back to the show. All right, let’s talk about sleeping bags. Do you have a go-to sleeping bag?

Craig Caudill: This is probably the piece that might surprise most people. I’ve got one of those no-name, I can’t even remember where I got it, sleeping bags that I’ve been using for almost 35, 40 years now. It was one of those, and I think it has to be paired with a good sleeping pad. But the key is the insulation that’s in it, as well as taking care of it. And there are a few things that I recommend for taking care of your sleeping bag. The first would be when you’re storing it. This is one of those things you never, ever, under any circumstances, should store in a stuff sack. A lot of people probably have them on their shelf right now, their stuff, because it takes up little space. But you should find a spot in the back of a closet somewhere where you can just toss it, leave it on the floor, or hang it up so that it continues to maintain its loft. That loft is really important. Something like insulation such as PrimaLoft Gold or something of that nature that is filling in these sleeping bags oftentimes have hollow fibers, and that’s part of the thing that helps it retain its warmth.

And if you stuff it in a stuff sack, that gets squeezed out and it has memory, therefore, when you pull it out the next time, it won’t do that very well, it won’t loft very well, and so it won’t retain heat if you need it to be doing that. So stuffing in the back of the closet is going to be really, really good for it. The other thing is, no matter what you think has happened at night, we all put off a lot of moisture. And so one of the best things to do first thing in the morning when you get up is to reverse your sleeping bag and let it air out. If it’s raining, then at least do it inside the tent. And if it’s not raining, take it out, hang it on a branch, lay it on the ground, whatever you need to do, hang it, set up a guideline so you can put it over a piece of rope and let it hang out and get a lot of air to it. But get a lot of that moisture out before you put it back in your backpack and move on to the next campsite will help you tremendously in saving the life of that thing, as well as saving the function of it while you’re utilizing it.

Brett McKay: What are the advantages and disadvantages of, say, a down filler using, like, feathers versus a synthetic filler?

Craig Caudill: Oh, that’s a great question. It’s one of those things that most of us that spend much time in the outdoors know how warm down is, and it’s fantastic. The way it’s put into a vest, jacket, a sleeping bag, whatever it is that you have, is very key. But the problem with all down is it starts to lose its ability to insulate if it gets wet. Now, there have been some downs that have been formulated where they’re basically coated with a coating to help them retain their warmth. But my experience is that that doesn’t work really well. And I say that because I see hundreds of students a year, and some of them come in with the best gear that, you know, money can buy, and then they get cold. Well, I think it’s one of those things where, you know, moisture inside the sleeping bag is problematic because of the down. I’m a huge fan of the synthetic materials in my sleeping bag because most of them will continue to insulate some, even if they’re damp, which is a good thing. The Hollofil is really… PrimaLoft Gold, and stuff of that nature is really good for that.

Brett McKay: One of your tips you have, if you feel like you get hot and sweaty in your sleeping bag, one tip you have is just like, well, leave one leg out.

Craig Caudill: Yeah, absolutely. That’s one of the things my dad taught me deer hunting years ago was because we would go out in eight-degree weather and sleep in the back of the truck, under 20 blankets or sleeping bag or something. And I’ll never forget him teaching me that the first time. And it worked really well. But basically, most people know you lose a lot of body heat through your head if you’re hiking or something of that nature. So you’re losing heat because it’s an exposed portion of your body. That’s true about any portion of your body that’s exposed. So if you’re laying in a sleeping bag and you stick your leg out or foot or what have you, then a lot of heat will escape both from the opening where you’ve stuck it out, as well as a lot of the heat will come off of your leg. And so you will definitely reduce your body heat inside the bag by doing that temporarily. Then if it starts to chill a little bit, put your leg back in, zip it back up, or whatever you need to do, and you’re back to getting warm again.

Brett McKay: What if you get cold in your sleeping bag even if you have a cold weather bag. Any tips on staying warm?

Craig Caudill: I think what I see a lot, Brett, is that a lot of people just, they feel like the answer to staying warm in cold weather is to put as many clothes as they can on and then get in the sleeping bag. So sleeping bags are made to be utilized without basically any clothes on, if you can stand that, because I like to say it this way: Our bodies are the only heaters that we take into the outdoors with us, unless we’re taking something like hand warmers or something like that. So, if you set your body up for success inside that sleeping bag, it will succeed. If you set it up for failure, it’s going to fail. And one of the big things that causes failure is when your blood is not flowing properly.

So, one part of that is, make sure you’re going into the sleeping bag hydrated. And the second part of that is, make sure you don’t have constricted clothes on. Like, there’s some tactical type classes that I teach where I have to wear boots and gear and chest kits and stuff of that nature. Even in the sleeping bag, I have to be ready to go. But I’ll loosen up my belt and loosen up my shoes a little bit so that the blood is flowing from my core down to my legs. That’s really important. Most people have something that’s tight around their waist inside the bag, and blood just can’t get to their legs properly. And if the blood’s not flowing to your legs and feet, your arms, if it’s constricted, then you’re not going to get warm. You’re going to get chilled pretty quickly.

Brett McKay: Another little hack that I’ve seen my wife does is a lot. Before you go to bed, heat up some water and then put it in like a Nalgene. And then you just stick that to the bottom of your sleeping bag and that’ll keep you warm.

Craig Caudill: Oh, absolutely. It’s one of the things in survival class where, because I take students out sometimes, we do knife only, where we go out without any gear except a knife. And one of the things that we are very fond of doing is warming up rocks in a fire that we’ve built and put them in our pockets and letting that help keep us warm. Same thing with a Nalgene bottle in the bottom of your sleeping bag. You know, it works great to keep your toesies warm down in the bottom of that bag.

Brett McKay: Oh, for sure. And we’ve done hot hands, too. We’ve had just kind of… That’s a nice thing to have, too. And then also with sleeping bag, that’s one of those things we need to really consider geography. If you’re going to be doing a lot of cold weather camping, you’ll want to get one that can handle those low temperatures. But, you know, for me, I live in Oklahoma. When we do our backpacking, it’s either in New Mexico and Colorado. So we’re up in the mountains, and we typically go in the summer and early fall so it doesn’t get too cold. So we just get kind of one of those sleeping bags that works year round, and that seems to be alright. But I imagine if we were in Canada, we’d want to get like a sub zero sleeping bag.

Craig Caudill: Yeah, that’s really key. And one thing that I haven’t mentioned that’s a really good setup is, United States military has what they call the military sleep system, which is basically a summer bag, a cold weather bag, and a bivy sack that goes around it. And when it’s extremely cold weather, you can put all three pieces together. And I’ve utilized that in subzero temps. Like, we had a class this past year where we had students out in nine below zero here in Kentucky, which is very uncommon for us. And that’s what I used was military sleep system, and it worked great. I slept like a champ in nine below zero weather with just basically the winter bag and the bivy sack without the other bag added to it. And that gives you what I call modularity. You can add to or take away whatever it is you need based upon wherever it is that you’re going.

Brett McKay: So in your book, you said you would spend more on your sleeping pad than you would on your sleeping bag. Why is that?

Craig Caudill: Oh, no doubt about it. This is another one of those things that’s really critical for people to get. And that is, the earth is a fantastic… Well, it does a fantastic job of conducting heat away from your body if you’re on it. So think about it. Now, in the summertime, if you need to get some heat out of your body, lay it on the ground, let it pull some of that heat out. Same thing is true in the wintertime, if you lay down on the earth, it’s going to pull heat away from your body. So if you’ve got a sleeping bag and you’ve got a $5000 sleeping bag, if that even exists, and lay down on the earth without a pad, it’s not going to do you any good because it’s going to pull the heat away from your body where you… Because the insulation that’s underneath of you is going to compress and there’s basically no insulation there. So the pad is critical. It’s absolutely critical to this process. So if I’m going to spend more money on one item or the other, I’m going to spend the most money I can afford on my pad versus my sleeping bag.

Now, keep in mind, I’m not doing northern boreal forest, you know, arctic temperatures in Canada or Alaska. I’ve only done that a couple of times, but. But I don’t have to get that sort of sleeping bag. But for me here, and in most situations, most of the people that I work with, a sleeping pad is the key to insulate you from the ground. And sleeping pads today are made with R values, so get something with the highest R value that you can afford. They work exceptionally well. A lot of them have insulation inside of them, and it works really, really well for that.

Brett McKay: What’s an R value?

Craig Caudill: R value is just a designator, just like insulation in a home that tells you the value of its warmth to ratio. And so R value is going to help you. You can see this number. It’s basically easy to quantify a sleeping bag’s value as a warmth insulator. And so the higher the R value, it’s going to be more effective.

Brett McKay: So, yeah, there’s lots of options for sleeping pads. I use, regularly, the Big Agnes, just the inflatable backpacking. Kate, she uses this, I forgot the name of the brand, but it’s like a combo air plus foam pad.

Craig Caudill: That’s where I’m at.

Brett McKay: That’s where you’re at? You like that one?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, I do. I like it because it just adds a little bit of comfort away from some of the rocks and stuff that are there, as well as if it’s just air, though, you know, for some. I’m not a little guy, I’m a bigger guy. So if I’m laying on that, then I might find that rock that I didn’t realize was there. So having both is really comfortable for me. I’m a big fan of Klymit pads. I use them in my hammocks as well as my tents. They work exceptionally well.

Brett McKay: Have you tried a backpacking cot?

Craig Caudill: I have not. Now I have some cots that I do when I, what I call glamping, you know, when I’m glamor camping. And I love sleeping on a cot because it provides an area for storage underneath. But I have never used one on a backpacking trip.

Brett McKay: Yeah, I’ve got one. They’re alright. I don’t think it was worth the extra weight.

Craig Caudill: So what’s the structure made out of?

Brett McKay: It’s this, like, metal tubing.

Craig Caudill: Okay.

Brett McKay: And, I mean, yeah, it just rolls up. It’s really compact, and I keep it on the outside of my pack, of my backpack. But, yeah, I just, I didn’t think it added much comfort. The other thing new to I noticed is that it got colder. ‘Cause I just felt like cold air was underneath there, and it wasn’t as warm.

Craig Caudill: Yeah, that’s definitely something that I don’t use cots in cold-weather situations. I want something that’s going to insulate me for sure, underneath me. If I’m going to use a cot, then I would use a pad on top of it, too.

Brett McKay: Yeah.

Craig Caudill: Which is, you know, that’s adding way too much for a backpacking trip.

Brett McKay: For sure. You actually have some advice, a great tip, on making your sleep a bit more restful when you’re sleeping on the ground. So how do you do that?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, this is a great, man. I hope your listeners love this because I’ve taught this to so many people, and they’re like, “That’s the greatest thing ever, Craig.” I call it the butt divot, but basically, you create a divot in the ground before you put your tent down, before you put your sleeping pad down, that is around the circumference of your bottom and dig it one to two inches deep. And that way, when you lay flat on your back, your bottom goes down into it and helps to align your spine. If you sleep on your side, then your hip goes down in it and does the same thing because the thing that gets most people to be uncomfortable sleeping on the ground is that spinal misalignment. And so by digging that little divot out, it’ll help align your spine. You’ll sleep better. I promise you, you’ll sleep better. Everybody listening, you’ll love it. And it works exceptionally well. It’s really easy to do. You can use this. You don’t have to take, carry a shovel, just grab a stick or a rock or something and dig out a little divot. It doesn’t take very long, and you’ll sleep much better.

Brett McKay: Another thing I recommend, if you’re a backpacker, the ROI on it is incredible. A backpacking pillow.

Craig Caudill: Oh, yeah.

Brett McKay: They’re amazing.

Craig Caudill: Yeah, yeah. I love a good pillow. This one, favorite Father’s Day gifts that my kids give me. I’ve got six or seven of those things, and I love them all. Some of them are made that you blow up, others come with some sort of material inside of them. Others are just something that you stick your clothes into and make a pillow out of it. Tough Possum Gear. I’ve got a piece of equipment of theirs that I utilize for that to make a pillow impromptu in the field. It’s fantastic. Have a good pillow.

Brett McKay: I love it, too. Yeah, the one I got, it’s really small, but it fills up nice, and it’s just really comfortable.

Craig Caudill: Nice.

Brett McKay: Let’s talk about water. And one decision you have to make when you go out backpacking or on a hike is how you are going to carry your water. There’s the bottle option, like the Nalgene bottle or bladder option like the CamelBak. What are the pros and cons of either one?

Craig Caudill: I use both at different times, but just for ease of use, putting the bladder on and being able to get to water whenever I want to easily, just super easily, is, you know, that’s very attractive. And, you know, because I love getting kids outside, too. My kids are grown now, but having a water bladder for your child, their own little backpack with a water bladder on it, is the coolest thing for kids to carry their own water. And they think they’re super cool because they get this big, massive straw. So if you’re wanting to get your kids involved in the outdoors, get them a little CamelBak or something of that nature. That’s fun, but I’ve gotten to where from a survivalist perspective, because I teach so much survival. I usually have either a plastic water bottle and a metal cup that nests right on top of it or I have a metal water bottle so that I have something there that I can boil water in in a problematic situation. And I love having access to that from a survival perspective.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. Yeah, I use the… I like to use the bladder but one downside with the bladder is they’re a pain in the butt to clean when you get home.

Craig Caudill: They are. I end up buying the whole kit and I have it. And I use, you know, you have the wire brush that you can stick all the way through the tube, make sure everything gets good clean. And it’s one of them things you just got to do it. If you don’t take the opportunity when you get home to clean your equipment, then you’re going to have to rebuy equipment. It’s a great way to save money in your budget because buy it once, take care of it, and it’ll last a very long time for you.

Brett McKay: What’s your go-to for water filtration when you’re out backpacking?

Craig Caudill: Sawyer. Sawyer Mini, Sawyer Squeeze. That’s the easiest one that I’ve found that works really well. I train a lot of folks on the federal level and law enforcement in the United States military. And so we’ve looked at a bunch of these things, like a bunch of different filtration and purification devices. And those are two very different things, by the way, purification versus filtration. But as far as filtration is concerned, I like the Sawyer. You basically get a Sawyer Squeeze, for example, and it has a little bag. You put your water that’s suspect and possibly contaminated in the bag, and then you put your… You screw on the filter on top of it. And if it’s new and hasn’t been used a lot, then typically you can gravity feed the water out of it. You don’t have to do anything else with it except hanging it upside down. If it has been used a lot and there’s, you’re starting to get some of the sediment that’s blocking it, then you can squeeze it through, and it makes it easy to squeeze through. And that’s a nice little package to have, a Sawyer Squeeze system.

Brett McKay: Yeah, I’ve been using the… I’m gonna check that out, but I’ve been using the Katadyn Hiker, the Pro. That’s a pump filter. It’s worked out good.

Craig Caudill: I used one of those for years, Brett. They are great. And keep in mind, and I’m glad you brought it up, what I just recommended is a personal go-to. Like, I’ve got one, somebody else that’s with me will have their own. If I’m gathering something like maybe what you’re describing where you’re taking the kids out, because I did the same thing when my kids were little. I would take that pump because I can stick that in the water. Everybody can bring their water bottle around or their bladder, whatever they’ve got, and we can pump it. And everybody gets filled up rather quickly because you can get more water quickly from a Katadyn pump than you can a Sawyer, that’s for sure.

Brett McKay: And yeah, going back to the distinction between filtration and purification, filtration, like the pumps we’ve been talking about, that will get pretty much everything except for viruses. Did I get that right?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, you’ve got that exactly right. And that’s a thing that a lot of people miss. You’re almost… And there’s a lot of debate on this, and I’ve taken this to the Kentucky Division of Water here in my state, where we’ve looked at devices and tested them against what basically the marketing says. And the best thing out there for viral contamination water source is some sort of chemical additive, whether it’s chlorine dioxide or an iodine like they’ve used in the military for years. Some of that variation is going to be the best thing for viruses. However, I caution people, because in a, what I call diminished decision making, it’s easy to say, okay, one of these tablets is good, then this looks really dirty, for whatever reason, because you’ve got diminished decision making, then three will be better. Well, that causes problems for your organs, and you don’t want to do that. So usually what I do is I write how many tablets are needed on the packaging and on my bottle, so that if I’m tired, dehydrated, not making good decisions, I just follow my own directions on the packaging.

Brett McKay: Gotcha. And I think for most instances when I’ve been backpacking up in the mountains, I’m not particularly worried about viruses in the water. I’m just worried more about the bacteria and the sediment, things like that.

Craig Caudill: Correct. That’s the main thing.

Brett McKay: Any go-to for heating up water? Do you like the Jetboil?

Craig Caudill: I like JetBoil. I’ve got a Fire Maple. Now, that’s a new company that started sending me products a few months ago just to test and see how they perform. It’s a new type of system like that that’s on the market and it’s more affordable. I mean, it’s one of those things that it goes with your budget. I’ve used JetBoils for years. I’ve used MSR’s for years. I use, you know, fire that I make in the outdoors from wood. Depending upon the area that you’re in, sometimes you cannot do that. So you have to take a stove of some sort. But, yeah, any of those things make it really super quick. I would like to add from a safety perspective is, there’s a lot of burns that are happening from using things like JetBoils because people get them started and then they walk away from them or they sit down and put that thing between their legs because, “Hey, I put my hands over it.” There’s been a lot of serious injury from that. Don’t make that mistake. When you set it up and you’re going to use it, keep your eye on it. Have it on a stable rock or the ground. Use the stand that comes with it. A lot of people don’t use the stand. Use the stand that comes with it. It’s there for a reason.

Brett McKay: Something I’d like to talk about, too. You talk a lot about in the book. You have a whole chapter dedicated to it. I think a lot of guys love talking about this tool. A knife. And you recommend your primary knife when you’re out in the outdoors is a fixed blade knife over a folding knife. Why is that?

Craig Caudill: Definitely because anything that has more moving parts or mechanical parts to it, that introduces an opportunity for something to break. So a fixed blade knife doesn’t have that problem. And when I say a fixed blade knife, I’m talking about a fixed blade knife with a full tang. The tang goes from the tip of the knife all the way down to the hilt. I’m a huge fan of LT Wright Handcrafted Knives. They’re built here in United States, in Ohio. Great guys, great knives. They’ve built the knives that I’ve designed. Those are just go to tools that you can utilize for all your cutting. And I do say cutting, not chopping. So a lot of people try to find that knife that works both as a chopper and a cutter, and it just doesn’t ever turn out very well. I’m a big fan of just a really good, solid, fixed blade knife. Now, that doesn’t mean that I don’t utilize or have with me a multi-tool or something like that. I do have it. I just don’t want that to be my go-to cutting tool. Now, I want something that I know that when I pull it out and I use it, I’m going to be able to use it, and I don’t use my tools ever, but if I use it properly, it’s going to last me forever.

Brett McKay: Okay, so have a fixed blade, bring along a Leatherman just to have the… I always have a Leatherman, I always have a fixed blade. What do you recommend backpackers take out or even just, you’re out for… You’re doing car camping. What do you take out for starting a fire?

Craig Caudill: This might surprise people, but I carry a lighter and I carry a lighter in my pocket, and the backup for that lighter is another lighter, and the backup for that is a ferrocerium rod. And because they just work and…

Brett McKay: You’re just talking like a BIC lighter?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, a BIC lighter. I mean, nothing fancy at all. I mean, this is one of those things where I do save money because I’m going to buy good shoes and I’m going to buy a good sleeping pad. I don’t have to buy some fire starter that’s going to cost me a lot of money. But, you know, understanding fire is important. You need a fuel source, you need an ignition source, you need oxygen. So to make that fire, that fuel source of a BIC lighter. And I usually keep at least one of my BIC lighters in some sort of waterproof container, whether that’s the one in my pocket or the one in my pack, something that is a waterproof container so it doesn’t get wet because they don’t work real well when they’re wetland. And then some sort of accelerant. FastFire is a company that makes some great products. You can get some less expensive versions that are basically backyard grill, you know, starters that you can start a grill in the backyard. Take those with you, because most of those accelerants are something that when you light them, they’re going to burn a little bit longer and hotter. They’ll go quickly, but it’s going to help you in that situation where you got damp conditions and damp materials that you’re working with. And so you might need that little boost to help you get that fire because everything out there is wet at the time. And so having fire accelerant cubes of some sort are good to take with you as well.

Brett McKay: Let’s talk about backpacks. Any recommendations on picking a backpack?

Craig Caudill: Yeah, I think the big thing people need to look for, and I just came up with a number here many years ago. But if you’re going to carry something over 20 pounds, for most people, then I recommend getting something that has a waist belt on it, because you don’t want anything from… Again, most people, and this is different depending upon your health and fitness and your experience. But anything more than 20 pounds just on the shoulders is going to cause a fair amount of stress, particularly when you’re not used to it. If you have a waistband on your pack and put it on you and utilize it, then it transfers that weight to your core where you’ve got these big, huge muscles there, your buttocks and your hips and your abdomen and all the things there that are going to help carry that weight a lot better. I’m a big fan of Hill People Gear packs. They’re made in Colorado. Those are good guys out there. They make great packs. They’ve got different belt systems that you can utilize depending upon what your needs are. They’ve got real hardy backpacks. And whether you get something like, from a Hill People Gear, or you go to a store. Either one.

Again, I would recommend going to a small store where you’ve got, like we talked about before, we had the shoe guy or the shoe gal. In a small store, you might have the pack person, you know, the person that’s really good at sizing you up. They’ve got frames that get put on you and measure your spine and your hip distance, and they’ll find a pack that fits you better, or they’ll set it up to fit you better. And companies like Hill People Gear, again, they have forums and social media groups where you can ask questions of the owners of the company, and you can talk to people that carry those packs. There’s groups like that on social media for every product out there, and that way you can get your questions answered. That’s one of the things that I do like about social media.

Brett McKay: Yeah, for sure. Any advice on packing your backpack?

Craig Caudill: Yeah. Everything that’s the heaviest needs to be at your core. That’s where the big muscles of your body work from. And you’ll be better served if you do that rather than hanging it off the top. And that’s another thing. Everything needs to be tied tightly to your pack and not swinging. That causes problems. But the big thing there is, put it as close to your core as you can.

Brett McKay: Well, Craig, this has been a great conversation. We covered a lot of ground. There’s a lot more people can learn. Where can they go to learn more about the book and your work?

Craig Caudill: Yeah. Thanks, Brett. It’s been great to be on here with you. Naturereliance.org is my website. Naturereliance.org is the hub for everything that I do. I’ve got a robust online school where you can train with me from anywhere in the world. You can find our calendar of classes. Come study with us in person. All my socials are there. I’m on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. All those. Got links to my books on my website. You can also pick those up. The one we’ve been talking about today is Ultimate Wilderness Gear. It is one of eight books and/or field guides that I’ve written, and I love for people to get outside. Any way that I can help you, I’m happy to help you, and being on here with you, Brett, has been a great way to do that, and I appreciate it.

Brett McKay: Well, Craig Caudill, thanks for your time. It’s been a pleasure.

Craig Caudill: Yeah, thank you, Brett.

Brett McKay: My guest today was Craig Caudill. He’s the author of a number of books, including Ultimate Wilderness Gear. He’s also the chief instructor at Nature Reliance School, which you can find more about at naturereliance.org. Also check out our show notes at aom.is/outdoorgear, where you can find links to resources we delve deeper in this topic, including links to the specific gear recommendations Craig and I mentioned in our conversation.

Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you’ll find our podcast archives as well as thousands of articles that we’ve written over the years about pretty much anything you think of. And if you haven’t done so already, I’d appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify, it helps out a lot. If you’ve done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think could get something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next time, this is Brett McKay reminding you to not only listen to the AOM podcast but put what you’ve heard into action.