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	<title>Comments on: What Can Manly Men Expect of Women?</title>
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	<description>Men&#039;s Interests and Lifestyle</description>
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		<title>By: N.</title>
		<link>http://artofmanliness.com/2009/12/20/what-can-manly-men-expect-of-women/comment-page-2/#comment-71015</link>
		<dc:creator>N.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=8038#comment-71015</guid>
		<description>It shouldn&#039;t just be about being manly or feminine, but about a relatively even division of roles. Don&#039;t get me wrong, I love the fact that men are taking to looking sharp (what girl isn&#039;t crazy about a sharp dressed man?) and like being a part of the female movement to do the same. At the same time, I&#039;ve grown tired of hearing my friends, female family members, or otherwise complain about men in the context of their lofty expectations. I never tire of reminding friends who preach that &quot;men are pigs&quot; that women are the same. However, I think the best way to embrace the ever changing standards of &quot;gender equality&quot; is not to define certain things as manly or feminine, but rather let members of a relationship embrace roles equally and as is fitting to their lifestyle. For example, in my relationship he cooks, I clean. This works well with the fact that I can eat and burn almost anything while he is a much more picky eater and loves to cook; and that I habitually clean to pass time and become easily frusterated by clutter while he is perfectly capable of maneuvering through the obstacle coarse that is his bedroom floor. 
The part that frusterates me the most about this double standard is the fact that if I think reasonably in terms of what I contribute and what he contributes I am content, but as soon as I fall into thinking through that double standard (that he should always be doing more because he is a man and that I am not obligated to because I am a woman and that would be sexist) I begin to think there&#039;s something wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It shouldn&#8217;t just be about being manly or feminine, but about a relatively even division of roles. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I love the fact that men are taking to looking sharp (what girl isn&#8217;t crazy about a sharp dressed man?) and like being a part of the female movement to do the same. At the same time, I&#8217;ve grown tired of hearing my friends, female family members, or otherwise complain about men in the context of their lofty expectations. I never tire of reminding friends who preach that &#8220;men are pigs&#8221; that women are the same. However, I think the best way to embrace the ever changing standards of &#8220;gender equality&#8221; is not to define certain things as manly or feminine, but rather let members of a relationship embrace roles equally and as is fitting to their lifestyle. For example, in my relationship he cooks, I clean. This works well with the fact that I can eat and burn almost anything while he is a much more picky eater and loves to cook; and that I habitually clean to pass time and become easily frusterated by clutter while he is perfectly capable of maneuvering through the obstacle coarse that is his bedroom floor.<br />
The part that frusterates me the most about this double standard is the fact that if I think reasonably in terms of what I contribute and what he contributes I am content, but as soon as I fall into thinking through that double standard (that he should always be doing more because he is a man and that I am not obligated to because I am a woman and that would be sexist) I begin to think there&#8217;s something wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilyn</title>
		<link>http://artofmanliness.com/2009/12/20/what-can-manly-men-expect-of-women/comment-page-2/#comment-71014</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=8038#comment-71014</guid>
		<description>&quot;So keep laughing ladies, you will find your lives incomplete, as though something major is missing (because it is).&quot;

Yes, indeed, it will be missing a very clueless man. Keep dreaming that all that needs to happen is a &quot;return&quot; to a more chivalrous society. Talk about denial. These are not Arthurian times, and you&#039;re going to have to do better than open my door at a restaurant. We need a lot of doors open - to opportunity, to true equality, to financial security, to safety from &quot;natural&quot; instincts. Why don&#039;t you show some real manners and stop trying to turn women into Stepford wives, buddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So keep laughing ladies, you will find your lives incomplete, as though something major is missing (because it is).&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, indeed, it will be missing a very clueless man. Keep dreaming that all that needs to happen is a &#8220;return&#8221; to a more chivalrous society. Talk about denial. These are not Arthurian times, and you&#8217;re going to have to do better than open my door at a restaurant. We need a lot of doors open &#8211; to opportunity, to true equality, to financial security, to safety from &#8220;natural&#8221; instincts. Why don&#8217;t you show some real manners and stop trying to turn women into Stepford wives, buddy.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://artofmanliness.com/2009/12/20/what-can-manly-men-expect-of-women/comment-page-2/#comment-70995</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 21:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=8038#comment-70995</guid>
		<description>Kate McKay December 23, 2009 at 3:55 am:

  &lt;i&gt;  @Gryphon-
    I’m afraid you misunderstand the post and reading things into it that aren’t there...We never said that burping the alphabet and ignoring kids was manly.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, but you did.

&lt;i&gt;Could we perhaps say that equality shouldn’t mean embracing and outdoing men in things that were traditionally considered masculine? That making out with other chicks for attention and lifting your shirt for beads and getting smashed and burping the alphabet and dressing in sweatsuits really has very little to do with being “liberated?”&lt;/i&gt;

You might start quibbling about the difference between &quot;manly&quot; and &quot;things that were traditionally considered masculine&quot;, but the inference in the paragraph above is clear.

As a non-American, I have no idea what &quot;lifting your shirt for beads&quot; means. You have some strange customs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kate McKay December 23, 2009 at 3:55 am:</p>
<p>  <i>  @Gryphon-<br />
    I’m afraid you misunderstand the post and reading things into it that aren’t there&#8230;We never said that burping the alphabet and ignoring kids was manly.</i></p>
<p>Oh, but you did.</p>
<p><i>Could we perhaps say that equality shouldn’t mean embracing and outdoing men in things that were traditionally considered masculine? That making out with other chicks for attention and lifting your shirt for beads and getting smashed and burping the alphabet and dressing in sweatsuits really has very little to do with being “liberated?”</i></p>
<p>You might start quibbling about the difference between &#8220;manly&#8221; and &#8220;things that were traditionally considered masculine&#8221;, but the inference in the paragraph above is clear.</p>
<p>As a non-American, I have no idea what &#8220;lifting your shirt for beads&#8221; means. You have some strange customs.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://artofmanliness.com/2009/12/20/what-can-manly-men-expect-of-women/comment-page-2/#comment-70953</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=8038#comment-70953</guid>
		<description>I think there is already a movement towards &quot;womanliness&quot;. One need look no further than the many flourishing craft and lifestyle blogs which focus on homemade food, decorating and dressing well on a budget, and (in some cases) sane and loving childrearing. Most of these blogs are run by stay at home mothers, and their readership is primarily female. There are also dozens of books about elegance, style, and entertaining that have cropped up in the last few years, many of which have become quite popular. I certainly read them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is already a movement towards &#8220;womanliness&#8221;. One need look no further than the many flourishing craft and lifestyle blogs which focus on homemade food, decorating and dressing well on a budget, and (in some cases) sane and loving childrearing. Most of these blogs are run by stay at home mothers, and their readership is primarily female. There are also dozens of books about elegance, style, and entertaining that have cropped up in the last few years, many of which have become quite popular. I certainly read them.</p>
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		<title>By: BSullivan</title>
		<link>http://artofmanliness.com/2009/12/20/what-can-manly-men-expect-of-women/comment-page-2/#comment-70951</link>
		<dc:creator>BSullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=8038#comment-70951</guid>
		<description>I feel a little awkward commenting, since, at the ripe old age of 31 and having been married for nearly 10 years, I feel old and experienced compared to many of those commenting.  

However, my husband pointed out this blog post and I loved it, but several of the comments have disturbed me for two main reasons, but first-

Ariah questioned why Chris&#039; wife felt comfortable with allowing him to make the &quot;tough decisions&quot; and offered advice that she seek counseling for insecurity issues. 
&lt;i&gt;Speaking of which, why, when things get tough, does your woman want someone else to take care of her? She should get into counseling ASAP to discover why she doesn’t trust herself enough to make good decisions.&lt;/i&gt;

I do not have issues with any of Chris&#039; comments, btw.  I tend to defer to my husband on both big and small issues.  And aside from not being able to make small decisions (I get overwhelmed very easily, I don&#039;t like the cereal aisle in the grocery store, too many choices), but I don&#039;t feel the need to have control over those big decisions.  I state my case, I state my desires, I state what I feel would be the best choice and why, but I trust &lt;b&gt;HIM&lt;/b&gt; to make, not only the best but the right decision for our family. Not because I don&#039;t trust myself, of course I can make the decision, but when it&#039;s a decision that effects more than just me (and in a marriage, it ALWAYS does) then only one person has to/should make that decision.  Your question is why should it be the husband, well why should it be the wife? Those of you who are so unwilling to allow yourselves to &quot;submit&quot; or &quot;surrender&quot; to your husbands, spouses, significant others, and then question our need for counseling, perhaps you should look at your marriage/relationship and ask yourself how much you really trust your significant other.

1) I believe Adrienne asked why anyone in the relationship had to be secondary.  The answer is sometime it&#039;s necessary, and it&#039;s called sacrifice, which is exactly what a true marriage is all about.  Sacrifice is the basis of every great, long-lasting marriage.  There are times when it is necessary for a husband/man to take a secondary role to his wife/woman and vice-versa.  
&lt;i&gt;Why does anyone have to take a secondary role at all? If someone must be the dominant person in a relationship why does it have to be the man? I am very secure in myself and my relationship, that is why I do not feel it is at all appropriate for me to be “secondary” and would never be with a man who derived his self confidence from his power over anyone, let alone me.&lt;/i&gt;
To believe that a marriage can last indefinitely without any form of sacrifice (thereby giving up part of yourself, including power and control, at a specific time for the good of someone else) means you&#039;re missing the point of what a marriage actually is.  Sure, two people can be equal partners in all things, but that&#039;s not a marriage.  That&#039;s a legal contract between two autonomous individuals.  And it is equally as insulting for those of us who entered to a marriage covenant with our spouses to have them compared similarly.   My hope and prayer is this will never happen - however my fear is that while you are secure in yourself (first) and in your relationship (second), the first time that a major life-altering decision has to be made where you disagree with your husband on the correct choice of action and you either both try to choose different actions or he makes a choice that you don&#039;t agree with, your relationship will not withstand the consequences.    

2) For both men and women, &quot;LOVE&quot; is a verb.  Love may be used as a word to describe some feelings, but ultimately love is a verb.  Love is my husband doing most of the laundry, because at 34 weeks pregnant with child number 4, I physically cannot get the laundry up and down the stairs. Love is my husband doing most of the cooking, not because I can&#039;t, but because he likes to cook and he&#039;s more adventurous with recipes than I am.  Love is me brushing off his car on a snowy morning before work, after brushing off mine, even though I&#039;m already late for work. Love is picking up his pants from around the house, and getting down on my hands and knees (yes at 7 months pregnant) to scrub the kitchen and dining room floors.  Love is him doing the dishes for after most meals, mostly because he likes the solitude of listening to podcasts and drowning at the noise of three other children for 30 minutes.  Love is me signing off to go do the breakfast dishes this morning, because he made a wonderful Saturday morning breakfast for the family and I sent him out shopping for new dress clothes which he sorely needs and has been wanting to get for a while. 

Great Post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel a little awkward commenting, since, at the ripe old age of 31 and having been married for nearly 10 years, I feel old and experienced compared to many of those commenting.  </p>
<p>However, my husband pointed out this blog post and I loved it, but several of the comments have disturbed me for two main reasons, but first-</p>
<p>Ariah questioned why Chris&#8217; wife felt comfortable with allowing him to make the &#8220;tough decisions&#8221; and offered advice that she seek counseling for insecurity issues.<br />
<i>Speaking of which, why, when things get tough, does your woman want someone else to take care of her? She should get into counseling ASAP to discover why she doesn’t trust herself enough to make good decisions.</i></p>
<p>I do not have issues with any of Chris&#8217; comments, btw.  I tend to defer to my husband on both big and small issues.  And aside from not being able to make small decisions (I get overwhelmed very easily, I don&#8217;t like the cereal aisle in the grocery store, too many choices), but I don&#8217;t feel the need to have control over those big decisions.  I state my case, I state my desires, I state what I feel would be the best choice and why, but I trust <b>HIM</b> to make, not only the best but the right decision for our family. Not because I don&#8217;t trust myself, of course I can make the decision, but when it&#8217;s a decision that effects more than just me (and in a marriage, it ALWAYS does) then only one person has to/should make that decision.  Your question is why should it be the husband, well why should it be the wife? Those of you who are so unwilling to allow yourselves to &#8220;submit&#8221; or &#8220;surrender&#8221; to your husbands, spouses, significant others, and then question our need for counseling, perhaps you should look at your marriage/relationship and ask yourself how much you really trust your significant other.</p>
<p>1) I believe Adrienne asked why anyone in the relationship had to be secondary.  The answer is sometime it&#8217;s necessary, and it&#8217;s called sacrifice, which is exactly what a true marriage is all about.  Sacrifice is the basis of every great, long-lasting marriage.  There are times when it is necessary for a husband/man to take a secondary role to his wife/woman and vice-versa.<br />
<i>Why does anyone have to take a secondary role at all? If someone must be the dominant person in a relationship why does it have to be the man? I am very secure in myself and my relationship, that is why I do not feel it is at all appropriate for me to be “secondary” and would never be with a man who derived his self confidence from his power over anyone, let alone me.</i><br />
To believe that a marriage can last indefinitely without any form of sacrifice (thereby giving up part of yourself, including power and control, at a specific time for the good of someone else) means you&#8217;re missing the point of what a marriage actually is.  Sure, two people can be equal partners in all things, but that&#8217;s not a marriage.  That&#8217;s a legal contract between two autonomous individuals.  And it is equally as insulting for those of us who entered to a marriage covenant with our spouses to have them compared similarly.   My hope and prayer is this will never happen &#8211; however my fear is that while you are secure in yourself (first) and in your relationship (second), the first time that a major life-altering decision has to be made where you disagree with your husband on the correct choice of action and you either both try to choose different actions or he makes a choice that you don&#8217;t agree with, your relationship will not withstand the consequences.    </p>
<p>2) For both men and women, &#8220;LOVE&#8221; is a verb.  Love may be used as a word to describe some feelings, but ultimately love is a verb.  Love is my husband doing most of the laundry, because at 34 weeks pregnant with child number 4, I physically cannot get the laundry up and down the stairs. Love is my husband doing most of the cooking, not because I can&#8217;t, but because he likes to cook and he&#8217;s more adventurous with recipes than I am.  Love is me brushing off his car on a snowy morning before work, after brushing off mine, even though I&#8217;m already late for work. Love is picking up his pants from around the house, and getting down on my hands and knees (yes at 7 months pregnant) to scrub the kitchen and dining room floors.  Love is him doing the dishes for after most meals, mostly because he likes the solitude of listening to podcasts and drowning at the noise of three other children for 30 minutes.  Love is me signing off to go do the breakfast dishes this morning, because he made a wonderful Saturday morning breakfast for the family and I sent him out shopping for new dress clothes which he sorely needs and has been wanting to get for a while. </p>
<p>Great Post!</p>
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