What Can Manly Men Expect of Women?

I need a woman who is an encourager. Being a man is hard, and I couldn’t do it without the support of a strong woman. “Behind every strong man is a stronger woman” is a true statement. The best attribute of womanhood is support. Being supportive doesn’t mean being secondary or second class, it means finding the good and encouraging it.

Gutsy article, guys. My compliments on sharing some much needed insights.

What I think it boils down to, really, is that women have a lot of the same responsibilities that men do. The virtues that this site has used to define manliness apply to women as well.

edit: Off-Topic, but I want to let you know that I tried post my comment using the Facebook Connect, and it wouldn’t go through.

Dear Sky-

Your comment was not deleted because I disagree with you but because it violated our comment policy in 3 key areas. It was “excessively snarky” and “did not make a valuable contribution to the site” and you did not use a “valid email address.” The comment policy can be found here-I suggest you read it before commenting again.

Dissent is always welcome. But if you’re looking for respect, please make an actual, well-reasoned argument as opposed to a passing, snarky remark. Thanks.

As I read the checklists, I immediately noticed how things had changed for the women but not for the men, so I was pleased when this article picked up on that point and carried on with a discussion of it.

My husband was a child of the eighties, and as such he grew up determined to be a good husband and not one of the “male pigs” he always heard his mother and her friends talking about. He’s succeeded! He helps around the house, spends time with the kids, and never complains about chores that go undone or tasks that are unfulfilled. I, in turn, take on some of the more traditionally masculine roles like yardwork, bill paying, financial phone calls, etc. Still, this article reminded me that I need to not take advantage of his good intentions by failing to keep up my share of the traditionally feminine roles too. Thanks for the discussion!

I agree that letting yourself go, ignoring basic survival skills and letting the other person carry the physical, financial or emotional weight in the relationship is laziness and selfishness. Everyone needs to pull their own weight or work out an equitable agreement.

I may be a cranky old truck driver, come home with battered boots and filthy jeans, but when my husband comes home, I’ve had a shower and am in fresh clothes. (My day runs 4 hours ahead of his) . I may not adhere to the photoshopped impossibility that is modern beauty, but taking care of myself is just sensible.

He pulls more of the financial weight than I do. I do more of the housework. We’ve been married 20 years.

The women I know who refuse to settle down have often had a bad prior experience. Abuse, neglect, wastrels, they all figure in there. I can’t say I blame them as I watch their trials with their exes.

It’s really all about respect. Do you respect yourself and others enough to put your best foot forward? Or are you sloughing through life, being a guy, being a gal and never growing out of your parent’s basement?

Fantastic article; reminds me of a favourite saying:
“Chivalry is not dead, it’s on the couch where you made it sleep.”

I feel this is an importand issue, because everyone seems to be looking for someone perfect, when no one is perfect. Finding a partner is all about finding out what you must have in a significant other and what flaws you can live with vs. what flaws you cannot tolerate. Women and men need to take a look at themselves and notice their flaws as well as their partners. Can some of them be changed to maintain the relationship, are some so ingrained that they are a part of you and thus you need to find someone that can accept them as they are.
Both my husband and I are modern people. We’ve both traveled extensivly, lived alone, gone to school, have partied (a lot) in our younger days. I’m a bisexual victorian goth and he’s a bisexual preppy jock. He grew up in a family with multiple step-parents and half siblings, as well as many step siblings (his parents were each married 4 or more times), My parents married their highschool sweetheart and have been together for 30 years. Instead of looking at these things as a reason why we can’t have a good relationship, we used these experiences as lessons of what works in a relationship and what doesn’t . That has made him a wonderful husband and father, and I believe made me a supportive and loving wife and mother. Though he ownes his own buisness and I own mine, my hours are less then his and I work from our home so I can stay home to care for my 2 year old daughter and my ailing parents, whom he has taken in as if they were his own.
He cooks dinner, because he likes to, and I take care of all other meals for the household as well as keep the house tidy. He takes out the garbage and does the heavy lifting, as I have back problems, but I do as much as I can from laundry, mending/making clothes to grocery shopping. Instead of going out with friends on the weekends we spend quality time with our daughter and each other, even if that involves getting his toenails painted pink! When we want to go out we go together, either alone or with friends we both like.
Yes, there are things I can improve on (sometimes I wear jammy pants all day) as can he (sometimes he leaves his muddy boots on the clean floor), but these are minor. We take care of each other, and that’s what matters. We split waking up with the baby at the crack of dawn. When I can’t get the laundry done- he steps in and takes care of it. When he’s too tired to do the bills, I handle them. We are a team, and that, I feel, is the meaning of woman’s liberation. Instead of me being his quiet little dutiful wife, I am his best friend, his partner in life. Though we both carry some traditional roles, we also take on non-traditional roles. We each do what is nessissary to keep our family, love, respect for each other and ourselves, and our relationship thriving. Though we’re very different people we complement each other and we work every day to maintain our relationship. Men can be men and women can be women, but together we are an equal partnership.

While I think this article makes a lot of good points, it also misses the mark on a couple of things.

As a female interested in the mission and principles of this site, I’ve often wondered what an “Art of Femininity” I could really agree with would be. Unfortunately, women CAN’T look back at traditional womanhood and say “This is what a real man does,” like men can. As this article pointed out, womanhood for most of Western history has been defined by the expectations and edicts of men.

What feminism is really about is finding a woman’s individual strengths, interests, and personality and encouraging them. Whether that results in a woman who is physically strong, nurturing, assertive, passive, whatever. Saying femininity is inherently about being attractive and charming is fairly offensive. Charm and allure are what MEN want in a woman, not necessarily what a woman wants for herself. Maybe she aspires to be an inventive leader. Maybe her ideal traits for herself are exactly the kind that the AoM champions. While an ideal man strives for these things, there’s no reason why a woman would not as well.

I’m a little disappointed by some of the comments on this post, which tend towards the “all girls want is Edward Cullen” viewpoint. This is not only a ridiculous generalization, it’s also dead wrong. What women who love Twilight (or Pride and Prejudice, or a variety of other romances) want is simply a man who is deeply in love with them. This can’t be that hard to understand. I would imagine that most men want a woman who’s deeply in love with them, too.

There are also a lot of mixed concepts, stereotypes, and ideas being employed here. Women who want to be thought of as princesses RARELY can burp the alphabet (an admirable achievement). And feminists do very, very often like to be traditionally feminine. I would really recommend an occasional look at the likes of Jezebel.com and maybe a glance at Bust Magazine. Intelligent, thoughtful, and yes, LIBERATED women rarely subscribe to negative stereotypes of men or themselves. I guarantee you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

I think some of this is self-policing: for the most part, men look for women who can be women, and the best men end up with them. It’s subconscious and instinctive. The women who fall further from that ideal wind up with guys from the shallow end of the gene pool.

Oh, and for better or worse, any woman who would nag at me to change something is a woman who will soon be looking for a new boyfriend. I tackle any “issues” in the spirit of supportiveness, and I expect my women to do the same.

Interesting article. I hope some good discussion comes from this. It’s something people don’t like to talk about, but when they do it usually devolves into flame wars.

I think Cathy makes some good points especially about feminism being about finding a woman’s strong points and traits and encouraging them. Who can’t get behind that?

What I think Cathy misses is that many women today have taken on a form of corrupted feminism thats bad for both men and women. Like the article mentions, I know lots of women (usually in their 20s and 30s) who want to be treated like a “princess” ie have men fawn at them, buy them whatever they want, etc. but still want to be treated as an equal. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t put yourself out there as a person that needs to be taken care of and coddled, but then get upset because men patronize you. They basically use feminism when it’s convenient for them and it’s not fair to men.

Many women (particularly in their 20s and 30s) have also corrupted feminism by arguing that becoming sex objects to men somehow empowers women. They argue that by being as promiscuous as men, they’re somehow getting on an equal footing with them. Consequently, we have porn stars and Paris Hilton being idolized by young girls because porn stars and Paris Hilton and other women like them get success by using their bodies and being sex objects. Betty Friedan would be rolling in her grave.

I’ve noticed you don’t see this sort of thing with older women who were a part of the feminist movement in the 60s and lots of them have no problem embracing traditional gender roles. I don’t know if it’s just their maturity or they’re just a product of their times but the women today could sure take a lesson from them.

And in regards to Jezebel, I’ve tried reading it but got turned off because the comments become snarky and catty. Feministing.com is worse. Women there are absolutely cruel to each other in the comments. AoM has been the best place I’ve found for these types of discussions. Always civil, respectful, and intelligent.

@Cathy-

“There are also a lot of mixed concepts, stereotypes, and ideas being employed here. Women who want to be thought of as princesses RARELY can burp the alphabet (an admirable achievement).”

The problems with some women described in that section are not meant to describe a single woman or group of women. They are pointing at various groups and types of women. Women who are uncouth and burp the alphabet (I really did have a woman do that for me) would represent one group, while women who want to be treated like a princess would represent another group.

As far as checking out sites like Jezebel, I actually have. But I was immediately turned off by the snarky tone and dismissal of anything related to traditional manliness. They would assuredly rip something like AoM to shreds. For example I recently read their write-up of the new Dockers campaign. While it is only an advertisement, I quite like their idea, and their “manifesto” is essentially a summary of the principles we espouse on AoM. Jezebel ripped it up and down and so did all the commenters.

http://jezebel.com/5420105/the-dockers-man+ifesto-pants-pants-devolution

I loved the first couple of comments – positively-framed answers to the question in the post’s title: “What can manly men expect of women?” Support. Encouragement. Thank you for these answers. They are constructive, and a breath of fresh air to those of us trying to become better women, or indeed human beings.

Some comments follow a variant of “please don’t be _____”: nagging, discouraging, self-centred. These are insightful because they reveal the sources of pain and discord. I believe they would be even more encouraging to women if phrased in a positive light. e.g. “I respect women who are _____.”

Please, let’s hear some more. Iron sharpens iron.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that there are no clear cut roles and that women’s liberation lies in being treated like an equal partner, not a pretty slave. I think it comes down the classic I-it vs I-you philosophical concept. When one starts listing off duties and making specific assignments that he expects the wife/husband to do then they are in the I-it mode, when one thinks as his wife/husband only as his wife/husband (an “it”, an object) instead of another living, functioning, human being with whom he/she has a relationship. I think the problem comes when we start making demands, “I do X and so you should do Y”. However, does that mean we cannot have expectations from the opposite partner? Absolutely not. But when we are in the mindset of “You are the woman so you should do this” or “You are the man so you should do this” that is getting into the I-It mode, we are thinking of the partner only as a man/woman, not another individual with whom we have a relationship. I think really the relationship should be give and take, co-equal partners, both willing to sacrifice in behalf of the other person and just ebbing and flowing, doing what needs to be done and figuring out how to best tackle it as equal partners, the specifics worked out for what is best for the specific two.

For a simple explanation: “An I-It relationship is a relationship between a self and a thing or a collection of things. An I-You relationship, on the other hand, is a relationship between a self and another self as a self. Two selves may relate in the I-It mode, or in the I-You mode: it is a question of whether the one self recognizes the other one as a genuine self, equal to itself in reality and integrity; or whether it merely interprets the other one as a stiff, inanimate portion of the external world. [Which many times I feel that in failing relationships the partners view each other as "its", husbands/wives, males/females]” http://www.goertzel.org/books/complex/ch12.html#3

I hope that makes sense.

It kills me to hear men blame the feminist movement for their own relationship problems. Many times it’s only a cop-out, the feminism movement becomes a straw man and half the time their problematic relationship could easily be fixed by a behavioral tweak on their part but instead they blame something outside of their control and then play the victim while disparaging all the good that came from the feminist movement.

That being said, I think many of the qualities that define great men or great women in the end are the same. When I think of a great man I think of someone who is educated, empathetic, responsible, confident, self-respecting, respectful, stands up for what he believes in, self-honest, intelligent, etc. the list goes on. But really what of those qualities are confined to masculinity? I think those same qualities belong to femininity also. A man who is all those things I think also expects a woman who is all those things. There will always be those ignorant men/women who create all the negative stereotypes but I think(hope) they usually end up together.

But while many characteristics are the same I do believe that there should be a certain male/female dynamic and there are certain ways that those characteristics could be manifested masculinely or femininely. I believe that most women would want a man who can make them feel safe and protected, one who would stand up for them and be protective of them and I think that is where the heart of the male/female dynamic lies. Maybe the masculine role is to provide a sort of protection, but that’s just my working hypothesis.

So in boiling it down, I’m still not sure exactly what exactly defines masculinity and femininity, but I think what defines greatness is the same in both.
In the end I think it really just comes down to mutual respect. I-You relationships both ways.

As a side-note, I’ve been reading the site for a while now and this is my first time commenting. I just wanted to say I love the site. Keep up the good work.

Luke – Then again, the rubies wouldn’t be bad either.

Being a man with a semi-stay-at-home-mom wife, this is something we have struggled with. For a while she was doing an internship (8-16 hours/week) and working 8 hours per week, while being a “housewife.” This really didn’t work very well because both sides of her life suffered. Meanwhile, I was working 40 hrs per week, taking 5 classes per semester, and trying to handle housework as well. Now that she is pregnant, she has stopped interning and working, but she still struggles with the idea of being responsible for the majority of the housework. I think this is because the negative aspects of the feminist movement have made her believe that she has less value if her contribution to her family is taking care of her family and her home, and have made her think that no matter what your situation is, you can’t take on the majority of the housework and child rearing because this means your husband is “using” you. She has trouble embracing that this contribution is just as valuable and necessary as my earning a pay check. I would like women to be at peace with the idea that its ok to do an amount of housework proportionate to the amount of outside the house work you do. I.e. if you both work 40 hrs per week, split it down the middle. If she works 40 and he works 10, split it 80/20, and if he works 40 and she works zero, split it 10/90 or 5/95. But the man’s attitude and how he treats her also probably plays a role in how long this would be successful…

I liked this, and I liked some of the comments even more.
What can we expect from women? Good question. It’s nice and healthy, I think, to have manly men and womanly women, but how do we define which traits belong to which side? Another good question.
Most of the virtues promoted here, courage, honor, loyalty, intelligence, passion, creativity, respect, are just as admirable in women as in men. So what are the differences? Is it a matter of style and delivery, that women can be brave and honorable, but in different ways?
It seems like I’ve still got more questions than answers this morning, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it would be nice to offer something wise and insightful.

Concerning the Dockers/Jezebel article: It’s just an ad for pants. The fact that someone managed to link khakis to sexual assault statistics (which do represent a failure of manhood) was somewhat nauseating.

In any case, maybe where we should start is by making a list of what characteristics we do admire in women.

The interesting thing to me on this is that even though there is significant validity in questioning what should be the gender expectations in today’s society and more specifically that if a man is willing to sacrifice and adhere to a goal of personal development, what should be the reciprocal sacrifice and goal of the woman? I have thought or two on that and they are below.

But first, I have an question to pose. And that is, how much of this perceived disconnect can be attributed to the pervasive sense of entitlement that we live with today?
In each of of the comments and points made in the original argument, there seems to be a common denominator of some group in general feeling like they are owed either for historical wrongs or current individual (and some times group) sacrifices.

I have noticed that finding instances of “unfairness” is a favorite hobby of way too many people today. Now, I am not saying that there are no groups in our society that should not own up to mistakes from past generations and look for ways to improve their current activities as well as make amends for those actions. But, not ALL groups fit those categories (which do is a topic for an entirely different discussion), and those that do; should not have vengeful and unrealistic expectations placed upon them now.

Okay back on target – What should a man expect from a woman?

For me, nothing. That is to say that as a group – I have no expectations of women. As an individual and as a man, I feel that it is more important for me to treat each person I deal with on a day to day basis as an individual rather than a stereotype. Hard as it is (and I often do not succeed), I should at all times avoid pigeon holing any one person based on any characteristics. With that said, I do have exceptions individually of the women in my life. The details vary person to person, but in general I expect consistency, equality, honor (truth & courage), and respect (love) for others. To break this down further:

Consistency – This is that there is a continuous and reasoned interaction that includes a voiced or unspoken agreement of the manners and civility we will use with each other without any double standards. In other words, don’t expect me to hold the door if you won’t at least thank me for it or worse if you ridicule me for it.

Equality – This is more about recognizing that in any relationships (love, friend, work, etc), each person brings a unique set of skills and weakness. As partners in the relationship, it is our responsibility to not find fault with a particular weakness but rather find a way to compensate for it or correct it. Also, it is a responsibility for each of us to use our skills to the betterment of the relationship and/or the partnership goals. The key here is that we each have our burdens that support each other while our deficiencies are covered by the other. And finally, there is no tally sheet. It isn’t about who did more work or who gets recognition. Its about the partnership succeeding.

Honor – For me honor is about being true to yourself and having the courage to maintain that truth in public as well as private. For me, the first step of adulthood is simply acknowledging that you, individually, have certain strengths and weakness and to then not try to hide either. Now that doesn’t amount to “if you got if flaunt it’. Rather that is to recognize you are imperfect, but gifted and to not to be ashamed of either. In this particular discussion, why this is important is that gender brings certain strengths and weakness. So, a woman should not be ashamed or try to hide this fact (physical, emotional, reasoning, etc) and should rather strive to take advantages of those strengths while looking for ways to compensate for those weaknesses. What exactly falls into either bucket varies based on a number of factors. One of those pertinent to this is discussion is whether or not they seek (or are involved in) a long term relationship(romantic or otherwise) with a man. The strengths and weakness specific to the individuals involved are largely defined by the type of relationship and the people themselves. They key is that we are truthful to ourselves about these and have the courage to be truthful with others.

Respect – This for me is pretty much the same as the love for our neighbor that Christ taught us. It is about recognizing each person is a unique miracle never to be repeated in this world and especially not in our lifetime. It is incredibly hard (and I fail frequently), but no matter how much another person upsets us, hurts us, or abuses us (and I’m not talking extremes of murder, torture, despotism, etc – again – another subject) – they are unique and we only debase ourselves by falling into a spiteful or vengeful relationship with them. The challenge is that when that “fellow” cuts you off on the freeway – try to recognize that they truly may have somewhere more important and more urgent than you to get to.

So what this boils down to is that if women (as a group or individually) expect to be treated by men in a certain way, they should be consistent in that expectation with recognition of an equitable contribution on their part. Additionally, they should be honorable in their behavior while treating the men in their lives with respect.

To me, each of the previous posts where a “partnership” and equitable treatment with out unfair expectations adhere pretty much to this formula. Being a man or a woman today can’t be boiled down to a simple set of equations as it has in the past. But, neither can it be a one way street with only one person (or group) shouldering the lion’s share.

So for me, I strive to man up every day regardless of the behavior of others around me. And those people who have long term occupancy in my life are there because they contribute to the partnership and appreciate my contribution.

I am enjoying the insight provided by everyone’s comments. I am dealing with a situation right now where I have been told that “I love you” but I am not “in love with you.” It all boils down to what each of us is seeking from a relationship and how much we are willing to work or sacrifice for a partnership – and I am not just talking about division of labor. True love, friendship relies on intimacy with a small “i” and above all trust – that you will not be betrayed and a believe that the other person can and will trust you.

As a woman – as a person – I offer complete support. If you are my friend you are my friend and I will be there to hear you bitch about your bad day at work, to hate your ex-boyfriend or girlfriend simply because they have hurt you,

Sadly we have raised a few generations of “entitled” people who feel as if they are owed something. A gorgeous blonde who’s owed a slobbery devoted boyfriend because she is nice arm candy – he’s LUCKY to have me! A hard-working guy with a big wallet who can provide you with jewelry, a nice address, fancy clothes and a car BUT is always at work, never there for the kids, doesn’t know how to slow down.

Keep the dialogue going …. it’s very interesting.

One of the best things a modern woman can do is opt of the whole “negative body image” game. How many times has this little dialogue played out between a woman shopping for a swimsuit and her husband or boyfriend?

Woman: “How does this one look?”
Man: “You look beautiful.”
Woman: “My thighs are too big.”
Man: “No–you look beautiful.”
Woman: “My butt is ripply.”
Man: “Darling, you look great.”
Woman: “I think I’ll go for the flapper-era style with the long skirt.”
Man: “Why don’t you try on a bikini?”
Woman: “You pervert.”

–whereas a man with a 200-pound gut will cheerfully walk along the beach wearing nothing but a Speedo.

This is one version of the game, wherein a woman tells herself she is old or too heavy to even try looking attractive–it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The other, more insidious, version (as reported to me by female friends) is that a woman who doesn’t buy into the “negative body image” meme becomes a target of resentment from other women: “What’s so special about HER?”

Consider a group of girlfriends going out for lunch:
Friend 1: “I’ll just have a salad.”
Friend 2: “I’ll have a salad with the dressing on the side.”
Friend 3: “I’ll have the extra-small salad.”
Friend 4: “I’ll have a cheeseburger and a chocolate milkshake.” Guaranteed, all the other women will look at her like “WTF?”

Sorry guys, but this is just too much fun!!

Els,

Consider a group of guys going out for lunch:
Friend 1: “I’ll just have a double cheeseburger
Friend 2: “I’ll have a triple cheeseburger.”
Friend 3: “I’ll have 2 double cheeseburgers”
Friend 4: “I’ll have 3 doublecheeseburgers and a chocolate milkshake.”

Friends 1,2,3 are awestruck and tell Friend 4 – DUDE YOU ARE THE MAN.
This really happened.

BTW – my wife would have been friend 4 in your scenario and pretty much told her “friends”…”What the blank are you looking at?” God, she is an awesome woman

American women:
- highest maintenance (I’ve never heard of a foreign bride demanding her husband buy expensive house & cars)
- fattest in the world
- most likely to cheat
- highest rate of divorce (60% – US-US marriages; 20% – US-foreign marriages)
- largest payout in divorce court (you´´ll lose most of you property, kids, and about 20 years of you income….while being called dead beat and thrown into debtor´s prison if you miss a payment))
- b!tchiest
- most likely to nag constantly
- most likely to believe in feminism and “equality”
- most likely to hate men
- spend least amount of time with her children
- worst at cooking and cleaning
- she´ll make more than you, but you pay for the dates, her wedding and the house.

Angelia Sparrow got it right. It’s about love and respect. I know this site doesn’t spend too much time on the spiritual side of things but when a woman is unconditionally loved she tends to become the woman she really wants to be. And when a man is unconditionally respected he tends to become the men he really wants to be. What I am afraid we are discussing here is keeping score which turns into an if-then relationship. Yes, it is seems a societal fact that women get a pass on a lot of things and men are dogged for a lot more things but the truth remains that when a person is loved/respected unconditionally, they tend to go to great lengths to be more loved/respected which in itself sounds Pavlovian but the alternative is one waiting on the other to take the first step and neither getting anywhere. And frankly, if I am a man acting worthily of respect and if my wife (of 30 yrs) is acting worthily of love, we will be working from within a relationship rather than from without one because one or both of us where demanded to be loved/respected first.

While the post is extremely thought provoking, if I were to show it to my wife, I think she would stare me down and then think that the whole website was a male-chauvinistic he-man manifesto. Then I would probably say something like “I know…its ridiculous right?”

I expect double stanards from women. For example, It´s OK for them to talk about women in women organizations, but not OK for en do to the same.

Or if a share with other people that men that our education system is failing our boys or that three quarters of all suicides are male or on average men live seven years less than women.
That men do the dirty, dangerous jobs in the places… women will not go, and his hard work, sacrifice is taken for granted or that a father’s unborn child can be aborted without his knowledge or that adoption services give children to strangers than the father, among other things, ff I mention these, that I´m a woman-hater. But is OK for women to support causes that benefit only women..

If you want to be see trouble, just wait for the woman to pick up a check at the end of a meal, even though she has a job and may make more than you.

I´m surprised that feminsts (men bad, women good) have not closed this website. Is Maniness operating on an off shore island? yayayaya

It seems that women today are more bitter, spiteful, confused and unhappy than ever before. (However, I don’t know there is any real validity to this, or if it’s just the result of prejudices influencing my observations).

It strikes me that in an attempt to garner “equality” with men (by burping the alphabet, etc.) they’re turning their backs on their “womanliness”. Could this be one of the reasons why they are so unhappy? Or am I completely off-track here?

I’m not sure what the age demographics are on this site (perhaps a subject for future article Brett?), but as a young man in my early twenties I found this particularly interesting. I normally don’t talk about such things, because, well, I’m a dude. What on God’s green earth do I know about women’s issues. Still, I think here I can safely add my two cents.

I agree that there is a double-standard when it comes to gender treatment and I’ve seen particularly disturbing examples of this at work in certain places. However, I think before men can ask what men can expect of women, men need to ask what women expect of themselves.

From here on out, I will be speaking in generalities. As with any random distribution, there will be statistical outliers and deviations from the normal line. I am not addressing these, I’m addressing the 80-95% statistical norms.

Men have had a single model for masculinity in any given era. The Macho Man. The Coporate Tycoon. The Sensitive Guy. The Metrosecual (the one I most vehemently hate). Occasionally you will have dueling standards (The Macho Man vs The Metrosexual, neither of which are healthy models) but for the most part it boils down to money, muscles, and lookin’ good. I’m not saying this is correct, I’m simply stating what I have observed in the mass media.

Now, compare the vast array of media targeted at women. Or heck, just take a look at a magazine rack in the check-out line sometime. Women live with a constant cacophony of voices, giving them different models of womanhood. Be a corporate tycoon. Be a sex-pot. Be a princess. Be a house-wife. Wear designer clothes. Ignore fashion and wear whatever’s on sale. Buy designer clothes on sale. Get a good man. Ignore men except for the occasional one-night stand. Be corporate tycoon sex-pot with a tamed, submissive man. Couple that with the stupid idea that there’s only correct model of womanhood and all others are “betrayal of the sisterhood of women everywhere” and you’ve got a recipe for utter confusion. For both genders.

I think it is necessary for women, on an individual basis, to decide what their model of womanhood is. Just as there are multiple types of manhood (Brett did a post on this a while back, November I believe), I think there are multiple variants of womanhood. The question that I’m not sure men ask (or heck women ask for that matter) is what those variants are.

Okay, so that was more than two cents worth.

Excellently written article. Made me chuckle but there’s quite a lot of truth to it. The thing is, if men had always treated women with the respect and (relative) equality that they deserved, what would they have needed to be “liberated” from? It’s a shame. But in any “liberation” movement the tendency to go to far the other way is very real and I think what’s happened here.

I say “relative” equality above because let’s face it. Equality *is* relative. Men and Women can be equal in what matters most (equal love, respect, opportunity, etc) but can never be completely “equal.” It’s just a fact that Men, on balance, tend to be physically stronger, more ‘analytical/logical’ perhaps, better equipped constitutionally to be the ‘provider,’ and so on. Women on balance tend to be more physically delicate, more emotional, more decorative, more ‘tender’ if you will, and so on. Stereotypical? Perhaps. Are there exceptions? Certainly. But they are just that- exceptions. I recently got into a heated discussion with a woman over an old film that portrayed 1800′s women (in her words) as “pretty, whiny wilting flowers” while exclaiming vociferously that she swung a pick axe for a living and lived in a bare bones apartment without heat, so those women didn’t “resonate with her.” Maybe not, but you can hardly expect all women (or even many) to relate to her “kind of woman” although I respect her for doing what she does.

Men are men and women are women, we should be proud of what makes what we are. I think some of the earlier comments hit it correctly: equality in the male/female relationship should mean being a team, working together, enjoying life together, and sharing each others responsibilities to an extent while retaining some traditional male/female distinctions ;P if this means that the woman has a bit more work responsibility in the household, while the man has a bit more work *outside* the household, I see nothing wrong with that and I’ll be the first to admit that many women are just plain better at “domestic” duties than I am- but then, I don’t expect the woman to shovel snow, mow the lawn, wash or repair the cars, or do heavy physical work. I see no reason why this should be offensive! :-p

My favorite dictum is “opposites attract”. When I was dating women who were militant feminists, it was because I was not living up to my masculinity, and once I asserted my masculinity, I was no longer attractive to them. Then I met a truly feminine woman, who knew what it was to be feminine, that she embraced her role as Mother and Wife, and found joy in fulfilling those roles, then I found true joy in being truly masculine. My wife has a college degree in Psychology and was fed plenty of the militant feminist garbage growing up, and even thought that is what it meant to be a woman, but was wise enough to see that it brought her nothing but confusion and misery. The Bible is filled with beautiful archetypes of what it is to be truly feminine, and what it is to be truly masculine, and plenty of examples of what happens when you fail in that mission. That is where I look to find direction, and it has never failed for a good reason, because it was inspired by the Creator of masculinity and femininity.

What a great post! This is such an important topic among today’s society. Men be men. Women be Women. Please encourage both genders to take upon themselves their role and stick with it.

@Adrienne-
“I’d like you to expand a little on your second point in the paragraph though, as I thinking say something like “give themselves over to being with a man” has a lot of implications but directly states nothing.”

Giving yourself over to being a with a man means giving yourself over to being part of a couple instead of being just an individual. Is it important to maintain your own sense of self in a relationship? Sure. But maintaining your own identity has become an obsession in our day and age, especially amongst women. In a relationship both partners give up some of their individualness to become a unit; you meld your lives together. I’m me, but I’m also Brett’s wife and I love being Brett’s wife. (And he in turns loves being my husband). That’s naturally part of who we are now. But I know women who freak out and jump ship when they feel that melding happening, because I feel like they have this ingrained fear of losing themselves in a relationship.

As with all things in culture, you have a swinging between extremes. Whereas historically a women’s whole identity was subsumed by her relationship with a man, now women fear giving away any of that indentity. And as always, I think the healthy path lies in the middle, where both partners give themselves to each other and become something greater than their individual parts.

Even though I am a women I love reading The AoM for it’s interesting and well-written articles. However, after a while I started to wonder if there was a website like this for women. I am in my early 20s, living in New York, and in the business of theatre management (a business still mostly dominated by men). Yet, my views on relationships between men and women are rather traditional. I often feel I’m living a conflicted life, working to gain my place among men, but still being feminine. I would love a website that discusses how women can deal with our new ‘equality’ in the workplace without isolating ourselves in social situations.

As a modern woman I agree that we need to return to some of the womanly ideals used in the past. While I do not think this should ever be a “return to the kitchen” sort of thing I do think being lady-like is no crime. A lot of the struggle for me as a modern woman is unlearning the idea that acting like a lady is somehow showing weakness or making your self subject to disrespect.
I was born in the late 80′s and it seems like I have been socialized to think that I need to be strong, independent and equalist to get any respect at all. I have been taught to act like my male counterparts but be twice as tough. this is both unrealistic and hard to unlearn. This socialization seems to be so strong that I have to force myself to remember to be gracious and allow men to hold doors and pull out chairs or pay for dinner.
I think AoM is very laudable and would like you all to know that some of us ladies are trying to work on the art of Womanliness as well- just like what you all are attempting to learn this is a difficult project for us as it is counter cultural. Yet, perhaps if we all try to be our best selves it will be that little bit easier for us all! Peace!

Random DNA checks prove that 20% of men who think they are father are not. This statistic is truly shocking.

There’s a whole evolutionary game theory worked out to explain this.

Simply put, a woman wants to bind a man into a monogamous relationship so he provides food and resources for her and her children, while she maximizes the genetic diversity of her children by having them with several different men.

In a culture of liberal woman´s sexual freedom DNA test at childbirth or at least divorce as the guy is on the hook for $1,000 monthly for almost two decades, ought to be required to determine the actual paternity.

Discussion from pregnancy message board:

¨It took me 2 years to get pg, we finally said screw it, stopped trying, and went to Mexico. Whammo, a vacation and margi’s did the trick.´¨

¨Your son looks kind-of Mexican, right?¨

¨shhhh- don’t tell my husband¨

Wow,

How many times have you written and proofread that article. Thanks for finally bringing it up in such an articulate and concise article. Now, you need to find a forum to effectively distribute this to women, because there isn’t much a bunch of men can do with this thing. I do have a few rules for suggestion:

Women should never, ever wear sweatpants in public. This is sloppy and should also apply to men.

If your going to stay home with the kids, do not drop them off with a sitter every two hours. This is a hideous display of a lack of priorities, and this can also apply to men.

Finally, if you have children, and prefer to work, make sure that you at least work during the day, and that you (and your husbands) salary are each significantly higher than the cost of childcare. Otherwise, both parties need to discuss why they choose to work away from home in the first place.

Wow. You know, I’ve always liked The Art of Manliness because it didn’t engage in mansplaining or because it didn’t wholly engage in this, “Oh woe is me, womenz are so unfair to me!” business that I abhor in so many “men’s” sites.

The Art of Manliness has always encouraged men to be Men, as in, grown-up males. To me, this has far more to do with civility, respect and responsibility than it does with wearing a suit to your college classes (aside: while I am a couple of years out of university, I never saw a guy in any of my classes–graduate or undergraduate–wearing a suit, unless he had attended/was attending a formal function immediately before or after) or whatever it is you seem to think women are interested in. Women want men to act like adults, not children, and in a generation where Tucker Max dominates the masculine ideal, I don’t think it’s wrong of women to say, “I’d really like it if a man were as interested in cleaning his toilet–which has stuff growing in it–as he was in Street Fighter/Guitar Hero/WOW.” I don’t think the idea that people in general should be grown-ups (i.e. responsible for themselves, treat others in general with respect and kindness, and should be honorable in their relationships) is in any way sexist against men, and I am sorry, but I do not see at all how women have been encouraged to be anything less in their own lives. While we might not see wearing high heels, making you dinner every night, and deferring to you in all things so that you’ll feel like a big, strong manly man all the time as necessarily part of those things, I think most of us feel that even if we’re not June Cleaver, we still have things to offer in a relationship.

A couple of other things: “The first is that men spent most of world history in a position of privilege (although there were real downsides to being a man during this time, too). Then the women’s movement happened and they lost that position.” Men have not, in fact, lost their position of privilege. When women are shown to receive callbacks for job interviews at the same rate or the same pay, when women are not routinely treated as little more than objects of male desire and/or mommies, when women generally speaking no longer have to deal with things like this blog post (if I wear a tie every once in a while, why won’t you cook me dinner every night?).

I’m insulted, which I understand was the very thing you were commenting in this post, but the reason why I am offended is because you so wholly miss the mark. You focus so much on a handful of girls in your acquaintance who apparently belch and make appearances on girls gone wild, that you ignore the fact that in most households, women still do the bulk of housework…even when they have jobs that are just as demanding as their husbands’. While a single man might do as much. In fact, when a woman gets married, the amount of housework she does goes up each week. When a man gets married, the husband’s goes down. Even in families where they are committed to “equal partnership” this is true.

Children still overwhelmingly see housework and child-rearing as the domain of women. The advertising industry certainly backs that idea up, considering that it is still almost impossible to find a commercial for a household product that features a man. Women have the highest rates of eating and body image disorders of the sexes by far, meaning that women still receive the most pressure to be beautiful and to meet certain beauty standards. Women face the greatest difficulty after having children balancing work and family, because even in supposedly “equal” households, men still expect women to be the one who stays home when baby is sick or to take off work if the kids need to be driven from one place to the other. This is demonstrated through endless studies that have examined how women’s careers stall after they have children.

It’s just so unbelievably frustrating to read this sort of, “Oh, poor pitiful me” write-ups when, apart from some anecdotal “I know a guy who says boys wear suits to class and I know girls who can’t cook” stories, it in no way at all reflects the ongoing gender inequality or the incredible position of privilege men still have in our society. And instead of, yes, manning up and accepting that when women get upset when a dude expects her to wear her pearls all the time–while she’s also doing the bulk of the housework and the bulk of raising the children and also bringing home half or nearly half or sometimes even more than half of the bacon–because it is in fact insulting that men still overwhelmingly want to have their cake and eat it, too when it comes to women, you guys bitch and moan because we aren’t doing enough to please you.

After all, you put on a tie and held open a door for a lady! Now where is your congratulatory BJ?!?!

Ugh. Things like this make me so grateful for the men in my life who understand and appreciate that while I might not do my hair and make-up every day and I might not be able to whip up a culinary masterpiece in my pearls every night after I get off of work, I’ve got a lot of other better things to contribute to a relationship and to humanity than fulfilling empty ideals of archaic womanhood. And if my fiancee, for instance, wants to wear a tie every once in a while, I hope he’s doing so because it makes him feel good about himself–not because he’s expecting to get something out of me for doing something which, I’m sorry, has almost nothing to do with what I expect of him as a man (again, a grown-up male.) That’s just screwed up.

This is a charged topic: Thank you for picking it up! I’ve been hoping your site would touch on womanliness at some point. The art of femininity has been lost. Much has been gained from the loss… but it’s worth looking back on what we’ve discarded and pulling from it those things that are still valuable. I’m interested to see what others (men and women) have to say on this.

Thanks for this post.

Good article, thanks.

I have been a housewife for 17 years. My duties include, doing everything in the home and garden, from cooking to cleaning, to taking out the trash, changing lightbulbs, taking care of all the pets. (no maid and no gardener, oh I also clean the pool)

He worked all day, came home and then did bachelor stuff, he took care of me financially,
so I ‘sort of’ accepted it and was willing to tolerate it up to a point.

I was the stronger woman behind this man, eventually with his mightely boosted ego,
at having a very sexy, beautiful, capable and creative wife, and an achieving son, he got himself a very young asian women (a sexworker) on the side.
(I suppose that’s how many men reward themselves)

We’re divorcing, I invested everything I had in the marriage, I was subjected to much
scorn from other females for choosing to raise my children myself and to not employ a maid.

I honestly also believe that the problems experienced with out of control children today, relates directly to the fact that their mothers are not personally raising them, and relying on
maids/helpers to raise their children.

Out of control children or children who do not reflect the same values as their parents, are a negative side-effect of feminism, a working mother is not the best mother for a child.

We should all be more careful that in out quest for equality we don’t destroy that which we hold dear.

The Women’s Movement just can’t seem to make any progress in paying or heavy work in relationships, can they?

This article started well, but then became rather disappointing. I can understand the desire for women to make an effort in terms of wardrobe and general manners. I agree, a lot of women lack certain graces that would make them more attractive. I think certain thing about traditional “womanliness” that should be brought back are things like wearing attractive clothing, being a good listener and conversationalist, taking pride in one’s home, being a good neighbor and being considerate, calm and polite in difficult situations. But some of the more deep set changes of the past century should not, and will not be undone. More people need to appreciate that times have changed beyond simple socialization. For example, in 1950, a large family could live reasonably well off of one income, now two income households are necessary for the same quality of life. Women need to work, and so household tasks need to be divided, and they shouldn’t be divided along traditional roles but rather which each partner likes and what is fair. I am a woman who likes to be outside, why shouldn’t I rake the leaves if my boyfriend would rather cook? Exercising is traditionally male, but everyone needs to fight heart disease and obesity, why shouldn’t women play sports? Women have to work, so why shouldn’t they decide where their money should be spent and be educated about investment? I love making money, and like most people I also love spending my money on people I love, so why shouldn’t I choose the restaurant and pick up the bill once in a while? I guess what I’m trying to say is, on a shallow level, I agree with you. The fundamentals, however, of gender role have changed for the better. Few good women will be willing to give up the progress we’ve made.

Katie: I think you aren’t reading this article in an entirely fair way.

I saw no where in the article where it implied that a man would “put on a tie” or do any other “manly” things simply for the purpose of getting something out of a woman for it. In fact, the article said this:

“A man’s desire to man up should really have little to do with women and their opinion of him. Basing their lives around the opinions of women is exactly where men have gone wrong these last few decades. A man should want to seek true manliness out of his desire for confidence, honor, and self-respect.”

The overwhelming point of this article, to me, was this: “In some ways, the new movement towards a return to traditional manliness needs women to be on board to be successful. After all, if you have men opening doors and asking women on real dates, and they’re just laughing in your face, that’s clearly not going to work out too well.”

This site encourages not only the fundamental character strengths that you allude to, but manifesting respect and admiration for women by being more “gentlemanly.” YES, open a door for her, give a little more care and attention to your personal appearance, hygiene and grooming, don’t be a skinflint, DO some cooking once in a while, don’t be sleazy, etc etc. What it’s saying is, that if men are willing to look to the past in certain areas to find what’s good and revive it, women should be willing to do the same. Admittedly, this can be difficult in today’s society with more women working and so on, but it’s still possible to a large degree.

I would agree that women still generally do the bulk of the housework. (Less so than in years past however.) I don’t find this inherently to be a bad thing. Not at all, and I don’t see why some women seem to loathe the idea so much. Many women in the past and even now take pride in having and managing a clean and pleasant house. Often women have abilities and strengths that make them more suited to “home-making” than men. THIS IS NOT INHERENTLY A BAD THING. IT IS GOOD. What I DO find unfortunate however, is that in today’s society/economy, women are often expected to do secular work outside the home to make ends meet. And I understand some women’s frustration when they are expected to do this IN ADDITION to doing the brunt of the housework. HERE is where men need to pick up the slack, if their household is under these circumstances. For instance, in my household, my mother had a full time job, and my father did nearly all the grocery shopping, my father and I did nearly all the laundry, and I did all the dishwashing. My father also would sometimes have dinner ready when she came home.
What I don’t understand is women feeling that their specializing in the domestic side of life is, or would be, somehow degrading to them. I just don’t get that.

Dee: excellent comment

I agree that women gained some things but lost a lot with the whole “lib” thing. Sure, women can do many jobs now that would before have only been open to men – but I know very few women now who would not gladly give up their full-time-grind jobs to stay at home, do some cooking and decorating, and be with their children. This is just one example.

Another brilliant post Brett, thanks so much for this. Rarely have I seen this cultural problem addressed as lucidly as you’ve done here.

This movement is really the cutting edge of today’s cultural evolution, I can only hope I meet a woman who chooses to work on herself as a woman the way I’ve chosen to work on myself as a man.

Her Behavior
* Be a taker, a Merchant Maureen, an entitled princess whose life is the axis of the “relationship.”
* Live on a pedestal, and talk only to men who want you there. Your femininity and self-esteem depend on being chased and courted and pleased and showered with gifts.
* Men must worship and take care of you, and finance your lifestyle. Reject all men who does not worship you. You want a new daddy who will treat you like a dependent daughter!
* Use sex as a weapon/reward, based on how much he pleases or displeases you.
* Do not allow your pathetic doormat discover your secret sex partner(s). When you discover his tryst(s), punch him, file for divorce, ruin him financially, and take your children away from him.

@Loris:

If the situation as it stands is really as you presented it, you are indeed getting the short end of the stick, and you’re expectations seem to me (as a man) to be entirely reasonable, if anything a little low. I’m willing to believe there’s another side to the story but his conduct to me sounds rather revolting!

Maybe someone needs to read this site…..

The aspect of femininity that I wish women would re-embrace today is modesty. We have a decent sized German Baptist community around us, and while I would not advocate returning to full length dresses and complete body coverage as a code of dress, there is something to be said for a woman that is modest. Using the German Baptists as an example, once a woman is married the only person that gets to see her with her prayer bonnet off is their husband. Strikingly simple, yet showing a modesty that respects and honors her husband and her own femininity.

I can honestly agree with your icomments as a middle aged woman. I WAS married to a man who was 12 years older than me. I have 4 children and i work a full time job, but also being a full time mother. My children ranged from infant to teenager-needless to say, I was a busy lady. I did everything! From doctor’s appointments, taxi cab, school shopping…. it would have been nice to have equally shared responsbilities. I don’t deem it a “woman’s job” or a “man’s duty”. I do believe too much emphasis is put on the “liberation”. My mom wanted me to be able to function in the real world, and be independant and fully functionally. She also did the same with my brother.
There’s too much dis-service a mother does to their son/daughter when doing EVERYTHING for them. This gives the notion their wife/husband will be the same way. Then you have grown ups who can’t do anything in the real world. Hence, the princess/prince attitude.
I guess what i’m trying to say is rather than deem something a man or a woman’s job, work together. Make it a point to learn something new or something you would never do. Pretty soon, you will realize you only need “you” to rely on.

What I said to Cathy, I can pretty much repeat to Adrienne:

“Unfortunately, Cathy falls into the same double standard trap that the post is addressing! As she is basically saying that there is one way to be a man, or at least there are some definite characteristics of a man-but women get to be whatever the heck they want-like a traditional man or like a traditional woman. And if she is not saying this, and she thinks that both men and women can be whatever they want and there isn’t anything unique to the sexes, then you’re back to believing in a genderless society. Which I guess some people support, but I find to be an idea that simply does not match reality.”

Adrienne you say that it’s okay for men to look at the past for inspiration, but for women it’s insulting. So it’s okay for men to have a standard for manliness, but being a woman should mean being whatever you want to be?

Let me clarify what I meant as that was not it at all.

Looking backwards MAY SEEM like a positive step from the PERSPECTIVE of a man, because of course things seemed rosier.

I never said anything about standards for manliness, and I certainly don’t believe or agree with any such a thing. Though there have been cultural restrictions (which I don’t agree with either) men have for the most part been free to shape what it means to be a man and do their own thing since.. well, for most of human history. The same cannot be said for women, and I think some ebb and flow is bound to occur before truly natural patterns can emerge. The best possible future for both genders lies in freedom of choice though, and I think we need to move away from a society that demands women or men follow any particular roles. Naturally men will probably tend to be more often A, and women more often B, so I don’t think a genderless society is even possible nor desirable but “standards” should not apply to either gender any more so than the other.

Adrienne, a society where we acknowledge some difference between the sexes but cannot base any standards whatsoever around them is a genderless society. That is indeed what you are calling for, which makes me wonder why you would ever find yourself reading this site.

If Katie and Adrienne are looking for men to take their arguments seriously, than they should try harder not to fall into female stereotypes-such as major verbosity. Their posts are twice as long as any man’s, thus demonstrating one of the differences between the sexes-a woman is generally unable to make a succinct argument.

That was a very interesting article, I’ve been reading AoM for a while now and funnily enough I was wondering that exact thing only yesterday! Cos I love the articles on how to be more responsible and fix things and so forth, but I was getting a bit worried that maybe I’m not the target audience for that at all, being female, but hey, knowledge is knowledge and skills are skills and I really regret that my own dad refused to pass his on to me because I’m female. On the other hand, if I got said skills (plus personal growth) together, would I be viewed as more of a liability by the sort of man who tries to embody the same things I do? I wondered. I’m already just the wrong shape to be feminine!

Well, some of the comments were heartwarming, indeed inspiring, well done sirs and madams. I think, maybe an important part of what everyone wants from a relationship is just to be appreciated for what they’ve put in, although that’s probably already been said in other words. Obviously everyone has things they expect from their partner, but somehow, once it’s on the table that, ‘I put X into this relationship, and I expect you to do Y’ then doing Y becomes a chore. If, on the other hand, one partner does X and the other one thinks, ‘Oh, how sweet! Now I shall do Y because I know they like it’ then it’s… kinda exactly the same outcome, and yet somehow very different? Fortune depends on the tone of your voice, as the Divine Comedy said. Ahem. This is very possibly drivel.

Anyway, next year I hope to teach myself to make jam and wine, as well as doing an engineering course. Maybe I will one day meet a lovely guy who also likes making jam and engineering, hope springs eternal. Actually, he’d better enjoy eating jam; I don’t. And he’ll have to be pretty damn special to deal with my complete inability to shut up, that’s for sure. Cat ownership beckons…

But fair play to Frankie’s mate who dyes his own yarn, that’s awesome, dude!

@ Sean F. Glass, I ran the list by him and he agreed that my assessment was accurate. Discipline was always an issue in his home when he was young, and he was never taught how to select a mate and be a good husband himself. Big time parental failings there.
On the flip side, I was an only child and was my mom’s default helper. By age 13 I could competently clean the house, alter my own clothing on the sewing machine (I’m well above average female height) and cook a meal unassisted. My mother was adamant that I must not be a helpless adult, whether I married right away after college (which I did) or lived away from home as a single.

We are both young (early-mid 20s) and haven’t been blessed with a child yet, so we have time to work on our relationship. We’re talking to our pastor, and will be seeing a marriage counselor in the new year. I just get very frustrated sometimes when I see lists of feminine virtues because I’ve been working hard to develop qualities that would make me an interesting friend, good employee, and excellent wife since I was a teen, and now I have to wait for my husband to catch up.

Good article, though I’m not sure about the historical accuracy of the ‘women on a pedestal’ thing. Original sin and all that?

I’m a man on the average to small side. My muscles are stringy to average. Among our group of friends I’m the smallest. Being small influences my behavior around large men. It isn’t that I lack courage so much as an instinctive attitude of self-preservation that causes me to be more diplomatic and circumspect around large men than I am around men of my own size. I wonder if, after thousands of years, the behavior or women has not been genetically influenced by the difference in size and muscle between men and women. If so, it might be unreasonable to expect precise equality between the sexes. I also wonder from time to time if, women’s nature being what it presently is, the size and muscle of the sexes were reversed if women would have been any better to men than men have been to women. The attitudes and behaviors of men and women, it seems, have been influenced in varied and subtle ways over very long time periods by our biology. It seems to me that our common human nature is the same, but expressed and viewed differently by each sex. Most men want an honorable, loyal, loving woman and most women prize those same characteristics in a man. I think we view those characteristics slightly differently through the “lens” of our own experience, but generally they are similar enough so that we recognize them when we see them. I’ve been married more than forty years and I brought those characteristics to this marriage as did my wife. In subtle ways the our best characteristics have been refined, improved and enlarged while our worst flaws have been softened, reduced or eliminated. We have nine other couples with whom we have been friends since college and I recognize in them the same subtle and refining changes that I see in my own marriage.
The problem, of course, is that this is anecdotal and may not reflect the way our culture is generally.

Great article. However, telling men not to hook up with women isn’t awesome at all. If anything, we should encourage men to have the type of relationship they want. If a man is looking for marriage, go for it. If all he wants is to hook up, we should support him for doing so and show him that he can hook up without lying or being sleazy about it. You can hook up as a respectable gentleman and women will appreciate you for doing so.

Kate – theartofbeingalady.com

Just sayin’.

Perhaps simply cultivating self-reliability and respectfulness from both genders, not just from men or women would really bring out true equality, and just by simple application restore the necessary roles for both men and women.

This was a great article!! The double standard is SO infuriating! I can hardly tolerate women who want men to be this and this but do nothing to meet that same standard! Shouldn’t they be excelling? No-they want their cake and to eat it too. I agree you with you. If we hold men to a high standard, they have every right to hold us to a high standard as well. Equality and all that

Awesome article!

@Chris. Um. Well. I can’t speak for any other ladies here, but I’m sorry you feel women shouldn’t be speaking on this subject. Only, the original post did specifically ask us what we thought too.If it had said, please, no ladies, then I for one would have respected that.

I don’t know if you’re a Chris who has posted upstream of this, so, if you aren’t, I for one would be happy to know your opinions on the original article? If you are a Chris who has posted, however, sorry!

@Chris, I apologise for the misunderstanding, since you didn’t mean that women shouldn’t be posting on this thread then I am sorry I thought you meant that. I know this is a site mainly for men and have been following it for a while because I applaud the movement to regain a dignified concept of manhood. I rarely comment because I know most of the threads are by men for men, and want to respect that. What country are you from, out of interest?

@ Andrew. With you on that one (and everyone else who mentioned it). I wear trackies (as they say in Scotland, and possibly other places) to my street-fighting class because there isn’t a female changing room and I don’t think the guys are quite ready for me to strip off in front of them – hell, I’ve just managed to get them comfortable enough not to pull their punches! And I feel deadly uncomfortable wearing trackies in public.

A favorite quote of mine:
“When woman is feminine she has the strength God gives to her, when she is defeminised she has only the strength she gives herself.” ~ Giuseppe Cardinal Siri

Great post, really enjoyed it. However, I remember reading a comment that women are overwhelmingly the targets and consumers of beauty products and beauty culture and that is sexist. But if men were the overwhelming targets of beauty advertisements and cleaning product advertisements, wouldn’t that be seen as sexist too? Men are targeted when it comes to sports advertisements… but I do not feel like that is sexist, just the way it works. Also, advertising is targeted at someone that would buy the product. Maybe women shop more for those products, since women seem to shop more than men do in general. The problem is that people, and it seems to me like more women than men, can look at anything in the world and yell out “THAT IS SEXIST!”

I think I see where you were trying to go with this post. If my decision to man up should not be based on the opinions of women, I think it should follow that men’s opinions should not dictate women’s efforts to be better women. However, that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have an opinion about the role of women. In fact, having an opinion about a man’s role necessarily implies something about the role of those who are not men. It might be instructive to explore this and see what we are saying about the role of women while we are defining our role as men. Unfortunately, I feel the discussion you started has been little more than bashing “feminazis” and other assorted liberal boogeymen. It doesn’t seem very manly to me to bitch and whine about how today’s women just aren’t living up to some men’s standards.

As someone who is dubious about the value of traditional gender roles to begin with, I’ve been impressed with the intelligent way you have approached many of these issues in your blog. I’d be interested to read more of your views on this matter, Brett and Kate. I expect that would be a much more enlightening read than the outright woman-bashing that has dominated in some of the replies here.

An Art of Womanliness site is long overdue. As much as I love this site and always return to it from time to time to get some great pointers or just to buck myself up a bit, it’s seems like a wasted effort at times when I see what the other gender is doing. The part about “hoodies and sweatpants” is very true. It’s hard to put my best appearance forward when my female classmates look like they came to class in the clothes they slept in, which they probably did.

But it goes further than that. Women need to well…woman-up. So many young ladies are stuck in this permanent state of being sixteen. Here are a few qualities I propose to young women if they hope to hook the best Manly Men around:

1. Get a freaking personalty! When I ask you during the date “what is your passion,” you should not struggle for an answer. Read some books, watch some offbeat movies, listen to an artist that none of your other friends do. Show me you’re independent and I’ll give you all the independence your feminist forebears told you that you deserve. If your passion comes in a bottle or your interests are broadcast to you via MTV, you’re going to get the exact same kind of guys you see on that channel: douchebags. Also, cheer up. Smile. Have a sense of humor and the ability to laugh at yourself but never put yourself down. And learn to take a compliment.

2. Drinking: I have to stress this because I browse the personals enough to know it’s a problem, THERE IS NOTHING SEXY ABOUT GETTING DRUNK. When I see a woman in person or in an online picture, and she’s holding a half-empty bottle of Jaeger and her skin looks like it’s been greased down with Crisco (that sheen everyone gets when they’re thoroughly tanked), it says something to me. That the first and last time I run my fingers through your hair will be when I’m holding it back as you vomit up the dinner I paid for. A glass of wine with a meal or an an after-dinner cocktail is perfect acceptable. It’s when you’re making Tara Reid look tame that you’ve gone too far. Drink Canada Dry, it’s a slogan, not a dare.

3. Don’t wear anything that says PINK, PRINCESS, JUICY, PHAT, or HOTT on it. It makes me want to card you before even speaking to you at length.

4. What is going on with your tastes in music and movies these days? If you share the same taste in culture with your 10 year-old niece, something is wrong. Harry Potter is not literature. Twilight is not cinema. And anything MTV promotes is definitely not music. Shut that crap off and listen to a woman with brains. Tori Amos is a great start…and my ideal picture of femininity as well.

5. Put…the…phone…down. And shut…it…off. Now. It’s a neon sign that says “SELF-OBSESSED” when you are texting enough to look like you’re writing War and Peace. First of all, it’s says that you’re too lazy or think too little of the people in question when you don’t have the decency to actually talk to them. Second, it’s a good indication of what you’ll be doing across from us on the first date. Unplug, darling. It’s ok to face reality once in a while. (My personal policy is that I leave my cellphone in the car during the date. If I see her phone AT ALL during the date, that’s the last one we go on. I am willing to give her my full undivided attention because I believe she’s worth it, I would only expect the same.)

6. No decent man expects a pencil-thin woman. That is a BS myth designed by European fashion designers whose interest in women is negligible at best. So take care of yourself on both sides of the spectrum. Just as there are women out there who are damaging themselves to achieve an impossible body image of being slender, there are also some women who could stand to go a few minutes on a treadmill. Manly Men have been taught how to take care of ourselves physically while ditching the “washboard ab” aesthetic, you ladies can follow suit.

7. I’m not sure when “liberated” became the nice way of saying “slutty,” but I’m pretty sure it happened right around the time Paris Hilton became a household name. Simply put, you ladies cannot prowl for a great life partner while playing musical mattresses. Everyone is entitled to a “freshman year” in their young adult lives regardless of whether you went to college, but eventually that has to end. A man of pride and confidence is not going to settle for being a mere blip on your radar in an sea of infinite hook-ups. So leave your wild and reckless past where it belongs: in the past. And keep it to yourself. I would also have to again go back to the online personals and say that it’s perfectly all right to post pictures of yourself with guy friends. It’s when you post pictures of guys with their hands all over you or their tongues in your ear that we see all too clearly what a typical “girls night out” for you is like. And a few swimsuit pictures aside, I’d rather see you for the first time in lingerie or semi-nude IN PERSON. Leave a little to the imagination.

Great article – and excellent comments!
What I expect of women? Less drama – as emotions ruin so many great things – many women feel they are sort of entitled to have their emotions rule, randomly, no matter how inconsistent, irrational or even hurtfull (to both themselves and others). In that sense I feel women act like it’s their prerogative to point out any inconsiderate word or action by men (“you can’t say that”, “I don’t like it when you…”), yet they don’t apply those rules to their own behavior – hijacking morals and standards, but conveniently forgetting that guys like to be treated fairly as well – that inconsistency, those double standards mess up too many relationships, I’m afraid. Leaving the good guys frustrated, bruised and lost – resulting in more caution with the next woman. For balance: men can be jerks, but for many their commitment-fear is the result of emasculation-angst – they see their married buddies ‘change’ overnight (and yes, many men really do need to change, there’s no denying, but it shouldn’t be forced on them as a form of submission to the woman).

I’m over-analytical, but usually I can dissect issues/behavior quite well, showing why things go the way they do – without judgement. Yet, whereas women expect (even demand!) empathy, EQ and what not from men these days (which is fine I guess, as long as it doesn’t become a ploy to rule over him), men can not expect some ratio, logic and analysis in return? We’re not all stuck in our high school years with a maximum of 4 basic needs – some men really have a clue and, I dare say, could point out ways how she could have a better life – without the intention of ‘wanting to change her’. Maybe it is called ‘leading’? Yet that last part is the red flag that modern women have been indoctrinated to, so yet again, it becomes emotional – instead of constructive (in general, that is – there are smarties that don’t need outside influences like Cosmo and the mass-media to make up their minds – as some of the comments here show).
But then maybe I run into the ‘wrong’ kind of woman – the ones that need a therapist rather than a ‘man’… So yeah, perhaps time for some self-revaluation here as well… As David Shade calls it: ‘select women wisely’.

@ Kate – I think you registered ‘artofwomanliness.com’ last year? Was thinking how that would going to look like, as you’re treading a potential minefield – if you evoke the ire of the likes of jezebeldotcom, you & Brett better find yourself some witness protection program…

I was a bit disappointed by how this site handled this subject. Instead of complaining how society is not letting men whine about the way women carry themselves, I think that “What Can Manly Men Expect of Women” could have been an opportunity to extol the virtues of young women who do carry themselves well.

As for the comments section, I see a lot of veiled and not-so-veiled sexism. I think we men have a lot more growing up to do.

Awesome article Brett. I will have to share this with all my friends and my wife too.

While mentioned several time previously, the biggest issue I see in women (at least those over 25), is the whether or not they can speak plainly. When a woman actually knows what she want or desires and has the courage to say it plainly she is instantly more attractive. This is something my wife has made big strides at during our marriage.

If a woman wants a solid relationship with a good man, she should be very upfront about it. That should include a basic view of what she sees as a quality relationship. It will scare off the those not interested in a real relationship and draw in the good men who share those ideals. Of course, this only works when the woman wants a serious relationship, though most women who read this are certainly there.

I think what may surprise many women, is that many men want to make them happy. In fact, when our actions make a woman happy, it actually makes us happy. As an example, just a few days ago my wife told me she would like to drive around looking at Christmas lights. Now, I’d never think of this as something that would make me happy by itself. Yet, I knew it would make my wife happy. While the lights weren’t that entertaining, we had a great conversation as a family (wife, daughter and myself). We talked about the great lights at some houses and laughed at how few lights were up in the most expensive neighborhoods. It was a great evening because she spoke plainly and I viewed her happiness above my whims.

This article really reached out to me and what I have been thinking for the last few years. I was lucky enough to meet the one girl who made me so happy that we’ve been together almost 7 years without so much as a fight. But I consider myself lucky, because I have friends that can’t find decent girls to be with. More and more I find myself “comparing” other girls just to show myself how lucky I really am.

Most girls that I know or have been around aren’t worth the effort, trouble, drama, or dare I say bullshit, that they bring around. It make’s me afraid for what’s to come in the future. Most girls I know are still immature, still act wild and crazy, go out boozing at least 3 nights a week, and at under 25 years old can’t count on two hands the men they have slept with. I have been seeing girls that are younger and younger dressing and acting like something out of a strip club or brothel. It worries me, and I’m only 23. It makes me almost deathly afraid of having children because lord forbid it would turn out to be a girl. My worst fear is if I did, would she try to act this way? It almost makes me not want to have children at all.

But back to the issue of women. If men can responsible and accountable for being manly, then women should be held to the same standard. Just the same way some men are still called boys because of how they act, women could be said to not be very lady-like. I think if more of today’s younger crowd took this to heart we might see some of this behavior die down. And I’m not saying that there aren’t some men out there that don’t act the same way either, believe me I know a lot of men that could benefit from the lessons that could be learned here at the AoM. In closing, I don’t feel that there is a need for “Back to the kitchen” movement either, but I do feel that some of the younger girls now a days could use a few lessons from that chapter in the book of Womanliness.

@Mr Miyagi – That attitude is exactly what has screwed up so many women today. Yes, married couples should certainly have more sex than is typical and more often women are the ones refusing (though a few men are guilty of this as well). But if sex is the only thing you want, go to a brothel until you grow up and quite messing up good women.

I read this site because I think the skills discussed here are useful for anyone to know. That said, I disagree with much of this article. I don’t think women as a whole (feminist or not) have any advantage over men. I think the issues you discuss here are more due to class and age than to gender. I went to college just a few years ago at a school with feminist leanings and most every woman dressed up quite a bit for class.

Those “Awesome/Sexist” statements you listed don’t really reflect society. Depending on the person, one may believe all of those statements are awesome or all are sexist. It isn’t sexist unless society is forcing people into those roles based solely on sex. You’re really comparing apples and oranges with those statements. Especially the one with work vs. kids.

@ Chemical Erik– dude are you taking estrogen pills or something? I’m not talking about sexual abuse or taking advantage of a woman. Reality is all men enjoy great sex and the older you get the harder it is to find time for it. But I believe that the women who make the time are rewarded with men who are more willing to do things they want. You can always spot the couple who has a more fulfilling love/sex life. It’s really all about making sure the lady is happy, because if she’s not then it doesn’t matter what a guy says or wants. But yes, the way to most men’s hearts is through their stomach ladies, so learn to cook too. Why do you think so many Americans are marrying women from south America or other third world countries? Because the women there are still being raised up to be women and not men.

Great article! I agree with the comment that men who hold themselves to the high standard should never get involved with a woman who neither appreciates a high standard or doesn’t raise her standards….drop those women and move on…”Woman…Woman-up!!

@ Sean F. Glass re: “pick axe swinging women”

Anyone who has ever looked at pictures from or studied the pioneer era knows that women back then – at least in the rugged environment of the frontier – could not afford to be whiny wilting flowers. They rolled up their sleeves and helped build homes, till fields, pick cotton, and bore children without the benefit of painkillers, antibiotics, or anesthesia. As much as I appreciate the more delicate feminine virtues, I think it’s important not to whitewash the conditions that everyone was living in back then, and to note that women’s contributions were (and still are) more than just emotional. Frankly I think toughness and resiliency are just as much feminine virtues as they are masculine, they are just expressed under different circumstances.

For a modern application, I read an article just this past week that discussed the explosion of interest in rock climbing by women. Apparently women make better rock climbers than men because they solve problems and deal with frustration and stress better on a mental and emotional level, and so despite the fact that they are not as strong they often end up reaching the summit more quickly than men.

@ Lynn:
What a great comment! I very much agree with your points and the eloquence with which you put it is refreshing. Thank you!!

@ Mr Miyagi While a healthy sexual relationships and happy relationships are correlated, more often than not the sex it is a RESULT of the happy relationship, not the cause. Sure, in the early parts of a relationship a vigorous sex life can help to foster the bond between two individuals. But unless there is a true bond based on respect and love, the relationship is ultimately doomed. Sex is not a “reward” women give to men who give them what they want. Just as catering to a woman’s every whim is not a “payment” for sex. A relationship based on sex and food? You might as well buy a Big Mac and a Playboy. I guarantee it will be cheaper than any date you take any of your “ideal” women on.

The false dichotomies used to establish what is and is not manly or womanly behaviors keep getting to me. Examples:

Burping the alphabet makes one unwomanly. As though doing so makes one manly? It makes one socially inept, irregardless of gender.

Taking care of the kids is womanly. As though ignoring the kids is manly? No, it is the responsibility of both parents to care for the kids according to their best skills applicable to the task at hand. If a man is good at kissing boo-boos and reading good night stories and a woman is good at helping with algebra and wrestling moves, then so be it. The important factor is shared responsibility.

Shoveling the snow off the driveway is manly. Right, so failing to drive out of ones own driveway during inclement weather is womanly? No. Again, this is a question of sharing duties. Frankly, the physically stronger one in the relationship should do this kind of work when time is an issue, but the weaker one should go do it to get a workout and build a stronger spouse out of themselves. If the man has the piggy flu, the woman better get her ass out there to clear the driveway so her mate can still go to the doctor. Now then, a Manly Man will offer to do it first. But a Real Woman will occasionally give him a break from it, even notwithstanding piggy flu or whatever.

Do I need to go on here?

To answer the core question: What is the Art of Womanliness? I don’t know, but talking about it in falsely dichotic terms just feeds that feeling feminists get about ‘barefoot and preggers.’ Position the qualities of Manliness and Womanliness as polar opposites that Make Sense. Example:

A well dressed man looks confident, strong, and prepared.
A well dressed woman looks confident, beautiful, and graceful.
(There are those who would say a well dressed man could appear graceful, but a Manly Man would prefer Strong to Graceful, would he not?)

A final thought: Perhaps men and women CAN encompass all that is thought well of any adult. The difference is, what impression do you get FIRST and FOREMOST?

Nice post. I am married to a wonderful woman who totally embraces her femininity in a very authentic way. Yes, it’s traditional, and many of our family members still don’t get it. But there’s a certain freedom to embracing what it means to be fully man, or fully woman.

For what it’s worth, there are signs of improvement. Take Pure Fashion, for example, which teaches its young women to live a life of purity, dignity, grace, and modesty.

mjaybee wrote ¨As a man, you will be expected in family court to provide financial support and, most likely, live without seeing your children.¨

This site is a feel good site that does not reflect the realities of the man-hating government and culture. I do like this site. It is refreshing to see somewhere that honors men, instead of making them look stupid, foolish and or horny So thanks.

Yet the realities of double standards of genders are here to stay at least through this generation. That in family/relationships the man pays and is punished – polite and honorable behavior or not. Specifically, though the man is legally innocent, the government´s divorce court will take his children, 18 years of income, and over half his stuff, while giving him most of the marital debt and an Order of Protection, just in case he grows angry at the new arrangement.

The US´s divorce rate is one of the highest in the wotrld of about 200 counrtries and women initiate divorce about 80% of the divorces here. It´s not if she divorces you it´s when.

Be manly unmarried.

I really appreciated this article. I’m encouraged to know that there are some guys out there striving to be manly – they seem to be rather lacking where I am. Instead, I know a bunch of frat boys and “nice guys”. The “nice guys” are heading in the right direction, but they are lacking in the self-confidence and leadership qualities necessary in a man. The reason that some girls end up in with the “bad guys” is because they have those qualities. How is a guy that is nice, but somewhat of a push-over, supposed to be the head of the household?
As a 21 year old young woman about to graduate, I can certainly say that we females are having a hard time striving to be feminine as well. I want to get married, have kids, and have family with the traditional gender roles, but until then am pursuing a career that interests me so that I can support myself. I am very wary to voice my views on marriage because of the criticism I often receive. Many people would be appalled to hear that I would be willing to leave my job behind to get married and have kids if/when I found a man I loved.
As a strong-willed female, this site gives me greater hope that there are strong men out there who have wisdom and integrity needed, who could earn my respect and who I would gladly defer to as the head of the house and let make the tough decisions.

Will posted a great article in the Community that really gets at some of the things we were trying to get at, but better! The author has written an article disparaging man-boys who never want to grow up and find a wife and have a family. Men commented that they weren’t manning up because the women out there provided little incentive to do so-that they were so confusing as to not be worth dealing with. Here’s an excerpt:

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_4_darwinist_dating.html

“Now, men and women have probably been a mystery to one another since the time human beings were in trees; one reason people developed so many rules around courtship was that they needed some way to bridge the Great Sexual Divide. By the early twentieth century, things had evolved so that in the United States, at any rate, a man knew the following: he was supposed to call for a date; he was supposed to pick up his date; he was supposed to take his date out, say, to a dance, a movie, or an ice-cream joint; if the date went well, he was supposed to call for another one; and at some point, if the relationship seemed charged enough—or if the woman got pregnant—he was supposed to ask her to marry him. Sure, these rules could end in a midlife crisis and an unhealthy fondness for gin, but their advantage was that anyone with an emotional IQ over 70 could follow them.

Today, though, there is no standard scenario for meeting and mating, or even relating. For one thing, men face a situation—and I’m not exaggerating here—new to human history. Never before have men wooed women who are, at least theoretically, their equals—socially, professionally, and sexually.

By the time men reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. Small wonder if they initially assume that the women they meet are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.

But then, when an SYM walks into a bar and sees an attractive woman, it turns out to be nothing like that. The woman may be hoping for a hookup, but she may also be looking for a husband, a co-parent, a sperm donor, a relationship, a threesome, or a temporary place to live. She may want one thing in November and another by Christmas. “I’ve gone through phases in my life where I bounce between serial monogamy, Very Serious Relationships and extremely casual sex,” writes Megan Carpentier on Jezebel, a popular website for young women. “I’ve slept next to guys on the first date, had sex on the first date, allowed no more than a cheek kiss, dispensed with the date-concept altogether after kissing the guy on the way to his car, fucked a couple of close friends and, more rarely, slept with a guy I didn’t care if I ever saw again.” Okay, wonders the ordinary guy with only middling psychic powers, which is it tonight?

In fact, young men face a bewildering multiplicity of female expectations and desire. Some women are comfortable asking, “What’s your name again?” when they look across the pillow in the morning. But plenty of others are looking for Mr. Darcy. In her interviews with 100 unmarried, college-educated young men and women, Jillian Straus, author of Unhooked Generation, discovered that a lot of women had “personal scripts”—explicit ideas about how a guy should act, such as walking his date home or helping her on with her coat. Straus describes a 26-year-old journalist named Lisa fixed up for a date with a 29-year-old social worker. When he arrives at her door, she’s delighted to see that he’s as good-looking as advertised. But when they walk to his car, he makes his first mistake: he fails to open the car door for her. Mistake Number Two comes a moment later: “So, what would you like to do?” he asks. “Her idea of a date is that the man plans the evening and takes the woman out,” Straus explains. But how was the hapless social worker supposed to know that? In fact, Doesn’t-Open-the-Car-Door Guy might well have been chewed out by a female colleague for reaching for the office door the previous week.

The cultural muddle is at its greatest when the dinner check arrives. The question of who grabs it is a subject of endless discussion on the hundreds of Internet dating sites. The general consensus among women is that a guy should pay on a first date: they see it as a way for him to demonstrate interest. Many men agree, but others find the presumption confusing. Aren’t the sexes equal? In fact, at this stage in their lives, women may well be in a better position to pick up the tab: according to a 2005 study by Queens College demographer Andrew Beveridge, college-educated women working full-time are earning more than their male counterparts in a number of cities, including New York, Chicago, Boston, and Minneapolis.

Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. But that doesn’t clarify matters, men complain. Women can take a Chinese-menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday night and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day. This isn’t equality, say the male-contents; it’s a ratification of female privilege and, worse, caprice. “Women seemingly have decided that they want it all (and deserve it, too),” Kevin from Ann Arbor writes. “They want to compete equally, and have the privileges of their mother’s generation. They want the executive position, AND the ability to stay home with children and come back into the workplace at or beyond the position at which they left. They want the bad boy and the metrosexual.”

Since you addressed me directly Chris, I feel I should respond. I’m pretty sure we will have to agree to disagree though, as I will never be someone who believes in ridiculous ideas like that in marriage the woman should surrender authority to the man. I don’t need someone to take charge of me and make decisions for me ever, I am not a child and find no comfort in being treated like one.

Thats not to say in a relationship there shouldn’t ever be someone who has the final say, I personally think that in most relationships there is a dominant decision-maker though not always. So far, my husband and I have always come to agreements on everything and I can’t imagine any situation where one of us would have to put their foot down with the other. If it DID come to that I believe it would be because of circumstance so the “dominant” player would likely depend on the situation. I hope we maintain that because I will never be the subservient type, but I have no desire to make decisions for my husband or take control in that sense either. I recognize it’s probably going to be more difficult than if one of us was more dominant than the other, but I have faith that we can truly remain partners.

Many will read what I am saying and assume I just want to be the boss and don’t want to admit it. Trust me there is nothing more off-putting to me than a man who needs me to figure out everything for him, except maybe a man who believes I need or want him to figure it out for me.

A quote from you:

“That person is the team leader or the “head of the house”. Some will disagree and call it sexist but I believe that person should be the man.”

Why should it be the man? Do you honestly believe that a penis makes you more capable of decision-making? Sorry but it does not, and I think being honest we both know that symbolically the man has been the head of the household throughout history, but who has had real control of the family and decisions? I doubt its always the woman, but I bet its more often (and even maybe most often) than you might be comfortable admitting.

“If he’s a real man who loves and respects his mate, he’s going to make that call based on what’s best for the team and not necessarily what he wants for himself.”

How could these same statements not apply to the woman if she is decision maker? You are just trying to apply an arbitrary rule based on how you and your wife are. Clearly you are a dominating personality, and she is not. It suits the two of you to have a relationship where you are the one in control, though as you say you respect and value her opinion. Because of the way you work, it should be YOU who is the decision maker in YOUR relationships, that does not mean that suits everyone. The very same situation could apply to a couple in opposites.

Basically, I believe you are trying to make generalizations that just don’t universally apply the way you would like. I think its important that people find someone to be with who suits them, who they can strike a balance with that works for them.

@Adrienne

“I hope we maintain that because I will never be the subservient type, but I have no desire to make decisions for my husband or take control in that sense either. I recognize it’s probably going to be more difficult than if one of us was more dominant than the other, but I have faith that we can truly remain partners.”

Thank you for that response! Chris’s post bothered me so much because he doesn’t seem to realize that an unequal relationship is a problem waiting to happen!

@Chris

I suggest working to discover why you decided prior to meeting your wife that you would never trust a woman to make decisions for you and why you feel all decisions must be approved by you. The way you have things set up now, disagreements either result in 1) a compromise you can live with, or 2) a decision you make. It sounds like you have some insecurity/control issues. I’m not saying that to be mean – people have issues. It happens. The important thing is to figure them out and not let them control you, or make you or other people unhappy. Speaking of which, why, when things get tough, does your woman want someone else to take care of her? She should get into counseling ASAP to discover why she doesn’t trust herself enough to make good decisions.

Dave said:

“Finally, and most controversially, a man should also expect a woman he is with to be secure enough around him and herself to take the secondary role in the relationship. If both partners are constantly battling each other for control, the relationship will be unhappy and ultimately doomed. This is not to say that the man should ever act in a manner which would disrespect his woman, just that for a MAN to be truly happy in his relationship, he needs to feel that he is in control. On the flip side of this, a WOMAN should not submit to any man until he has proved himself worthy to be the MAN in her life.”

I do not get this. Why does anyone have to take a secondary role at all? If someone must be the dominant person in a relationship why does it have to be the man? I am very secure in myself and my relationship, that is why I do not feel it is at all appropriate for me to be “secondary” and would never be with a man who derived his self confidence from his power over anyone, let alone me. I find the very idea that any man needs to feel “in control” of someone else to be truly happy in his relationship to be frankly pathetic, and insulting to men. If you are a strong, secure person you should not need to be controlling anyone.

Ladies, please have enough respect for yourself and your worth as a human being not to “submit” yourself to anyone, not in the sense Dave means. You do not have to become someones sidekick, or lesser-half, or surrender authority over yourself in order to be a supportive, nurturing, loving wife. It seems there are many men here who get it, but sadly still a large number of them that use chauvinism (while claiming they are not chauvinistic) as an excuse to rationalize their personal need for control in relationships.

My man is strong and capable, physically and mentally. That is why he can be with a strong woman such as myself, without feeling the need to assume some kind of “I wear the pants around here” authority. A real manly man doesn’t require being dominant in a relationship as he would be secure enough to be with an equal.

Props

@Ariah – I would be very interested to see some of the content for a “Art of Womanliness” website. Have any ideas?

@Brett – Thanks for including the article on “Darwinist Dating”. It’s reassuring to know that there are others out there who are confused by all of this.

This is a great article and I love the site! I like many others felt that finding a REAL woman in the U.S. was going to be practically impossible, but low and behold I found a wonderful woman who is intelligent, capable but also embraces her femininity and desires to fulfill her traditional role as mother (stay at home mom as well). She wants a man who embraces his role as provider/protector. A man who will provide for her and their children, who will be a good dad, respect her and also be the leader of the household. In order for this to happen a woman must find a man who worthy (i.e. not being a tyrant, who listens and considers her etc.). A real man should put his family first, knowing that their well-being is his primary duty in life.

Division of labor is important. No society can exist if everyone is a CEO, manager, or manual laborer. It just isn’t logical. A relationship is the same way. Just as has been pointed out before there is almost always a more dominant person in a relationship. It is completely natural. And NORMALLY the more dominant one is the male. This is not because of some “evil society that mistreats women” but because men and women are NATURALLY different. Psychologically we are different. This doesn’t mean one is superior to another but just what I stated. Different. If we were 100% equal in all things then men would be able give birth, we would have all the same natural interests (or likelihoods of being interested in whatever), hell why even have two sexes? We would just be one sex who can perform either duty.
So we are naturally different and different things appeal to us. So instead of trying to impose an egalitarian, false, feel good theory of total equality, my girlfriend and I embrace our natural roles with complete respect and consideration being showed to the other. The result in my relationship and those that I have seen that are similar are a much higher rate of happiness when compared to the modern model relationship.
I could go on and on but I think I will just make a blog post about it.

It’s important to remember that there are always exceptions. There are and always have been situations where the woman fulfills many of the traditionally male roles. This is fine on a small scale, as I mentioned, it happens naturally. The problem arises when the culture tries to reject the (general) natural roles of the genders. We have all sorts of gender confusion (not speaking of sexual orientation) as has been mentioned by others in what is expected on women and men.

Thanks for hearing me out, keep up the great work! I linked to this on facebook to show my support.

I have to say, following this conversation has been quite humorous. Many of the women who have commented and disagreed with the article are exactly who the article is addressing! They read this website and I imagine they like it or are at least not offended by it. But the whole website is based around the idea that there are generalizations and standards you can expect of all men. But if you turn it around and say the same thing about women, then women say, no, no everyone should be treated as an individual! Do they not see that they are the embodiment of the double standard that’s being addressed here?

A society that bends everything for the exception instead of the rule is bound for failure. A society that acknowledges gender differences but refuses to have any rules or expectations based on those differences is a confused, chaotic and unhappy society. Can these smart women think of any other instances in life where you know something, but refuse to act on that knowledge?

Let’s take smoking. Most people who smoke get cancer. Some people who smoke their whole lives, never do. Should the Surgeon General not make recommendations and standards around the rule that smoking causes cancer? Of course not. Even if there are exceptions, the best thing to do is establish a standard based on the majority. If individuals still want to smoke, fine. But everyone knows the score.

Men and women have different brains and different hormones. We’re different. We can ignore our biology all we want, but doing so will only bring about ridiculous and confused relations between the sexes. We’re animals designed for reproducing our species. Deal with it.

Thanks Kate *blush*
I’d be very interested in an “Art of Womanliness” site as well…

I really enjoy this blog, and I liked this post a lot. It raises good questions for married couples.

My husband also reads this sometimes, although I typically share it with him when I think it might be something he would like to read. Truly, I read the site for myself.

No, no–I’m not trying to become manly or to usurp the authority in the relationship. I’m not overly concerned about the quality of my wristwatch (though I loved that post). It’s just that I think there are a lot of universally relevant topics here. I want to be more authentic, and overall a better, more responsible person. While the language doesn’t always resonate with me, if I rephrase the key points, I find that they really encompass the art of humanity.

Look sharp. Take responsibility. Listen, love, and care for each other.

Don’t act like a bimbo.

Thanks for the blog (and the book! My husband is going to be happily surprised this holiday season).

Brave post and excellent discussion. I love it!

Just my thoughts… I’m a tattooed goth chick and gun enthusiast that writes erotica novels for a living, but I’m also a dedicated wife, mother of 2, and a homemaker that loves to cook, garden, keep a clean/organized home, and rush to the door and kiss my husband when he comes home from a hard day at work. I think a lot of women use feminism as an excuse to bleed men emotionally/financially dry and it is disgustingly wrong. I am a strong feminine woman with bold ideas, and I need a strong mentally masculine man to complement and balance me, not some whipped head-tucked man-boy that cowers whenever I have a girl tantrum. Luckily I found such a man and can’t imagine living without him. If he gets angry I comfort him and help find a solution, and if I have a mommy meltdown he talks me off the proverbial ledge. Above all else, no matter what happens, we RESPECT each other, and you can’t have a happy healthy relationship without it. Period.

Feminism was a war that leveled the entire nation of masculinity in order to kill chauvinism. I believe resources like this blog are excellent for rebuilding the admirable aspects of manliness, while omitting the bad. But this cannot work without effort from the former conquerors (females), and that means women who use the feminist war as an excuse to mentally abuse, insult, and demean the ‘enemy’ forever, are thwarting the recovery effort. A true rebuilding cannot be completed in this post-war environment unless women know their place, as well as men. I think a female version of this website would be a great addition.

I found this site when a reader of this website found mine because they were looking for a womans equivalent. I am so glad to be here! I have been pondering what has happened to women for a long time!! I can’t believe what this “liberation” has done to society.

I think I have an interesting perspective on womaness, because I was born in America to foreign parents and travel a lot. I know women from a lot of different places and we talk. American women tend to be the leaders in demanding their husbands are their equals, as being told by many commenters. While I see women from Medeteranian/Middle Eastern/Russian culture being more about family and home. I know a lot of American women torn between staying at home or working… They tend to think if they stay at home they are GIVING something up and if they WORK they are miserable because how can they juggle everything. Because lets face it, children want their mothers. Mothers are nurturing, caring, they kiss booboo;s and make them better, not daddys. Oh, and another thing, American women work because they want ALL the comforts – a big house, a nice car, nice clothes etc… Where as I think foreign women, can make ends meet better. They can take a cheap $20 dress and wear it with pride so that they can stay home with their kids. Most foreign women would do with less and have a quality home life.

I think this is sooo true. Women who raise there own kids have more confident and happy children. American society is falling apart because kids feel entitled to everything, and money can buy anything in their parents minds. Kids need their parents to be parents. Their moms to be moms and dads to be dads. THIS DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I know there is such a thing as house dads now a days, and I dont think it makes up for a mom. I once worked with a girl whose mother worked out of the home and father was the primary care giver and the little girl, burped and farted and thought it was funny. She was rough, whiney, and rude. I am sure if she had her mother she would have been different.

Look at american society? Don’t you notice those of past generations to be more simple and more satisfied with life? More caring with better manners? These days there are more train wrecks. More violence, more crime and more egoist attitudes.

Just a couple days ago, I walked in to a labroatory to get my blood drawn. When I walked in the waiting room was packed not an empty seat. There were older people, younger people, and even a 2 year old with her own chair. I thought it was extremely sad that when I walked in, a very pregnant lady of 7 months, the person who got up to offer me a seat was an older woman well about the age of 70, she had a freaking walker!!! But sat there the 2 year old, her mother didn’t even notice, very very rude. If that was my mother, I would have immediately been swept into my mothers lap and my seat would have been offered to the pregnant woman. WHat the heck is wrong with manners these days? Ofcourse, I didn’t take the seat but I am so surprised no one thought that our exchange was at all interesting. People are oblivious these days.

I am so saddened by all of this, and tehre for have started my own equivalent of AOM called, http://www.beingalady.com , its really new, but I am on a mission, a mission to help women remember what it is to be a lady.

Ciao,
Victoria

It really is funny that some women get all up in arms about this. The truth scares people. And this site speaks (largely) of the natural relationship between man and woman. Almost all women feel and naturally want a Real man. It is only our backwards culture that brainwashes them (and us) otherwise.

So keep laughing ladies, you will find your lives incomplete, as though something major is missing (because it is). Hearing things that resonate with the truth but shatter your whole world outlook is scary. Denial is the first reaction. My soon to be wife understands this and together we try to cleanse ourselves from the filth that is modern American “culture.” I let her be a woman and she lets me be a man. She keeps telling me how natural it all feels, even though our degenerate modern culture says otherwise. She has found freedom in embracing her femininity as I have in embracing my masculinity. It really is liberating (contrary to popular belief).

So the next time you find yourself admiring a manly man instead of chastising yourself from being attracted to him (or his manliness) and become filled with self-hate and hatred of men, why don’t you try acting vulnerable or feminine. You might find the results are better than the usual complaining with your girlfriend who always agrees with you or taking it out on your castrated boyfriend.

I think there is already a movement towards “womanliness”. One need look no further than the many flourishing craft and lifestyle blogs which focus on homemade food, decorating and dressing well on a budget, and (in some cases) sane and loving childrearing. Most of these blogs are run by stay at home mothers, and their readership is primarily female. There are also dozens of books about elegance, style, and entertaining that have cropped up in the last few years, many of which have become quite popular. I certainly read them.

“So keep laughing ladies, you will find your lives incomplete, as though something major is missing (because it is).”

Yes, indeed, it will be missing a very clueless man. Keep dreaming that all that needs to happen is a “return” to a more chivalrous society. Talk about denial. These are not Arthurian times, and you’re going to have to do better than open my door at a restaurant. We need a lot of doors open – to opportunity, to true equality, to financial security, to safety from “natural” instincts. Why don’t you show some real manners and stop trying to turn women into Stepford wives, buddy.