Q. I have been dating a great girl for two years. For the past year she has been pressuring me to take the relationship to the next level. I really like being with her and we have a lot of fun together. But she is not marriage material, not for me. But I really like talking with her. She gets me. She has become my best friend and I do not want to lose that. How do you suggest I go about ending the romantic relationship but remaining friends?
A. You’re asking the wrong question. Try one of these: If she gets me and she’s so great, why am I afraid to commit to her? If she’s not marriage material, why would I even remain friends? When will I get some men in my life so I stop relying exclusively on women for my emotional support?
I don’t know how old you are or if you’re even remotely ready for a long-term, committed relationship. If you’re young, say, in your 20’s, you have plenty of time to feel the pain of loss, learn your lessons, and eventually find true love. If you’re older than that, and have gone through this a time or two before, it’s time to figure out what’s really going on.
If you’ve done your dual column, plus/minus analysis and she’s come out looking pretty good, then what’s keeping you from taking it to the next level? Is she pushing too hard? Have you spoken to her about it? Have you asked some mature buddies for input? Has anything else happened for you, or between the two of you, that you haven’t mentioned here or to her?
Perhaps there’s some behavior of hers that really gets under your skin and you’ve been afraid to talk with her because you don’t want to hurt her feelings. Maybe sex has become predictable, you’ve lost interest and you have no idea how to spice things up. Or could it be you want something else, aren’t sure what it is exactly, but are scared to let her go completely?
My experience working with hundreds of men has shown me that there’s usually something quite obvious lurking in the shadows. Take the time and ask for the help you need to get honest with yourself. That sort of introspection will most likely reveal the truth and point you in the right direction.
If she’s simply not the right one for you, why would you remain friends? Now, I know I’ll get a lot of flack for this from some women-and a lot of feminized men. But I have found that once men develop trusting relationships with other men, they realize they have no need for those friendships with women or old girlfriends.
Whether you’d admit to it without water boarding, there is a sexual component at play in most friendships between men and women. It may be innocent flirting, repressed mommy issues, or you’re playing with fire. But whatever it is, it affects how you are as a man and it affects the quality and content of the relationship.
When you’re with the men-and I’m assuming you’re straight-you are not thinking about getting into another man’s pants. You’re not trying to act charming (although it happens in group and the men learn some valuable lessons about treating men like men, and not treating them like the women they’re trying to seduce). You’re simply trying to help, get help, build trust, or have fun. It’s simpler, cleaner, and just what men need.
If you decide to end this relationship, end it. Be straight up. Be honest. Be a gentleman and then move on. And then take this opportunity to rely on men for your emotional support. That way, the next time you’re conflicted about a relationship with a woman, you’ll have the men around to help guide you to the truth. Because when you find the right one, you won’t want to let her go.
Got a relationship question for Wayne? Email him @: askwayne@bettermen.org
Wayne M. Levine, M.A., mentors men to be better men, husbands and fathers. See how you can become a better man at www.BetterMen.org.
©2009 BetterMen®
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Really? I thought the idea that a man and woman couldn’t be just friends disappeared in the US around the 1930’s and is now limited to a handful of countries like Afghanistan where women can’t even show their face to men outside their family.
If your unable to have a normal friend relationship with a member of the opposite sex without it becoming sexual or a mommy surrogate you’ve got some pretty serious interpersonal issues and possibly even some sexuality issues. It’s definitely not normal as most of the western world has no problem in this area.
Not to mention, if your unable to form a non-sexual relationship with a woman your likely to have some serious problems in the workplace by either avoiding women in favor of men which will create some obvious interpersonal issues or by making passes at your coworker. There’s no question it creates a major barrier in your career if you have any interaction with people, especially if you plan to move into management at some point. You need to be able to be social with both sexes equally, and yes that will mean treating your work friends of both sexes the same way.
That said: make a decision already. Either move on, or move up.
Wayne, man, I hate to disagree, but I think you are way off base here. Now I know I don’t have a master’s degree or anything, but I can clearly see this guy’s problem. He obviously cares about this girl, and yet, he knows that she isn’t “the one”. He knows that he is betraying his heart, and in turn betraying her, by staying in a romantic relationship he is unsure about. You advise this young man to be honest, and be a gentleman, and then move on. Well Wayne, it appears to me that this fellow is trying his best to be a gentleman, a gentleman who knows that it is entirely possible to have great friendships with women free from the “issues” you alluded to above.
There is no reason why, given an appropriate amount of time to adjust to a new situation, these two young people can’t be friends, even best friends.
Signed- One of the “feminized” men
@ Drew: What you say is true, but what I think Wayne also is pointing out that, once you’ve sort of gone down that path with a woman, to the point that marriage comes up as a possible outcome, you sort of owe it (both to yourself and to the woman in the relationship) to figure out why you’re unsure about taking it to the next level in the first place. It’s fine to have hesitation and refuse to commit, due to fear of betraying your heart…but at the same time, there comes a point when you have to go past your fears and identify the real reasons why you’re afraid – then decide to go all the way or not. Nothing’s worse for a man than to exist in between two places of commitment at once (commit to your relationship to her, or commit to your own interests).
Also, even if this guy tries to stay as friends with her, do you really think it’s fair to her? And do you really think she’ll be okay with staying with a guy who thinks she’s great, but not good enough to consider marriage? I’m not exactly a woman, but logic would lead me to an emphatic “NO”.
Remember: “Fear is temporary – but regret is forever.”
Drew, you say this guy wants to be a gentleman, but a gentleman doesn’t have a two year relationship with a woman he knows isn’t marriage material. I knew within a few months of all my relationship whether we had a future or not. I knew my husband was “the one” within a few months too.
I do think men and women can be friends though-yes there is some sexual tension almost always but what’s wrong with that?
I wish he had defined “marriage material”. I know a couple.the guy loves the girl married her and regretted it because she wasn’t “marriage material”,met another and lived with her for 10 years and claimed she was “marriage material” but he loved his ex and wouldn’t marry the live in lover. Sometimes guys need to take the time to figure out what they really want.
“Really? I thought the idea that a man and woman couldn’t be just friends disappeared in the US around the 1930’s and is now limited to a handful of countries like Afghanistan where women can’t even show their face to men outside their family.”
It seems to me the question of whether or not men and women can really be friends was debated as recently as “When Harry Met Sally.” Of course that was some years ago now, but I think it’s still up for debate. Or at least it’s a question that shouldn’t be dismissed with hyperbole.
[quote]Really? I thought the idea that a man and woman couldn’t be just friends disappeared in the US around the 1930’s and is now limited to a handful of countries like Afghanistan where women can’t even show their face to men outside their family.[/quote]
Not necessarily, some comment on this subject can be found here:
http://www.laddertheory.com
Wayne, I think your spot on, maybe because I’m a bit older 43, father of 4 and been married for 18 yrs, he needs to let her go. If you have strong, mature male friendships you wont be turning to her as you’re best friend. I have women that I think are great friends that I have known since high school but will never be my “best friends”. Just cant happen, especially if your married or are trying to find a woman to marry.
There’s a saying – “Love is not self-seeking”. And I guess, the real issue lies in selfishness. The asker does not want to commit because it does not suit him, yet he doesn’t want to lose the “companionship” of the girl. Where does the girl come into the picture then? Which goes back to a more important question – why did the relationship end up being a romantic one in the first place? If the guy wanted just the friendship of a girl, they would have been just friends to begin with.
But I guess, people fall in love because it’s convenient. But when “love” is no longer convenient (marriage and commitment), “I-just-want-to-be-friends” becomes the easiest excuse.
I guess, many people just don’t know how to love genuinely.
I have a lot of “girlfriends” or girls that are my friends as well as my “Girlfriend” or romantically involved best friend/love of my life. I find there are things I can talk to a woman about that no man could ever understand coming from another man and visa-versa. It is possible and it is healthy to have good friends of both sexes. As for remaining “friends” with someone you were romantically involved with? For me personally, once you’ve headed down that path there will ALWAYS be SOMETHING still in the back of your mind that says “Maybe it could still work” or “What if I stayed with her” or “I might still love her. What if she still loves me?” That’s just asking for nothing but trouble in your new relationships. It may be best, out of respect for not only your new love (if there is one) but for your old one to actually move on when you’ve decided to move on. Just my two cents.
Wayne,
I loved this article! I definitely agree with you on the “why be friends?” piece. On one hand, it is totally fine to be friendly, on the other hand– have tried both ways of being, the being friends after the break up and not being friends, not being friends, doesn’t mean you can’t be friendly if you see them. Remaining friendly (if they were good people, just not good matches and our social circles overlap), and not being friends is much cleaner, and is better for my next relationship. It gives me the space to grieve the relationship and be more open to the next one.
I think the questions you encourage the man to ask himself are great.
I’ve also found that my romantic relationships are better when my closer friends are women. This doesn’t mean don’t be friends with men, but it does mean I’m not as close with them as I am my women friends. It took a lot of work for me to get to that point and realize that it did work a lot better for me that way, for many of the reasons you suggestion men seek the companionship of men.
It isn’t just men who seem to have this need to never let go of any relationship they’ve ever had by desperately clinging to the friendships with X’s women do it to. I used to.
Thank you so much for writing this Wayne. And thank you dude who regularly writes this blog for posting it, sorry I don’t know your name, but I like your stuff!
XOX,
Lexi.
Man, that’s a tough one. There’s a lot of heartfelt comments from commenters that have evident passion for the case they present, but there’s level-headedness, too; a rare combination, indeed. It’s been good to read the post and comments.
“But I have found that once men develop trusting relationships with other men, they realize they have no need for those friendships with women or old girlfriends.” I really have to agree on that part. Lexi has some great wisdom and insight regarding that section. I don’t really have anything to add to it, really, except to say that what she says really applies just as readily to the guy-side of things.
I really like her explanation about what it means by “not being friends”.
Good stuff, here.
I don’t understand the reasoning behind AoM’s opinion that men and women can’t be friends. Is it “can’t” or “shouldn’t be”? I’ve both worked and socialised with men and it was never a problem. Yes, you may come across someone who’s perpetually on the prowl, male or female. Women do that sort of thing now you know. But that’s where a polite but firm rebuff comes in.
But I do agree with Wayne’s advice regarding the young man’s girlfriend (I assume its a young man). I know from both personal experience and those of my female friends, I don’t want to be “friends” with a man who’s dumped me. Or me him. And frankly, I’ve never been involved with a man who wanted to be friends post break up. If anything, you want to get as far away from each other as possible.
Poppycock! My best friend is a man. We’ve been friends since varsity, kept in touch throughout our lives, spent hours on the phone debating this and that even though I lived in Italy and he did in South Africa, shared heartbreaks and joys and and our families are friends – our kids even like his kids! We’ve been friends for 30 years and there has never been any physical attraction.
Abouth the young man’s girlfriend (even though I’m a woman, I have two sons who have been through much the same situation):
1) It could be that you’re simply terrified of the comittment issue;
2) She could be the wrong person for whatever reason;
3) But take Wayne’s advice – if my husband would be so insane as want to dump me, I would wish only ill health and agony on him – certainly not be his friend. I have only remained friends with one boyfriend and that’s because he’s gay and is the only man in my life (apart from the sons who HAVE to) that’ll take me to ballet.
«If she gets me and she’s so great, why am I afraid to commit to her? If she’s not marriage material, why would I even remain friends? When will I get some men in my life so I stop relying exclusively on women for my emotional support?»
That’s why I adore AoM. This is the manly way to sort things out!!
If you want to know whether you are a hypocrite or not, ask yourself this question: “If she ever showed me the green light, would I try something?” If you answer yes (and I answer yes to many of my female friends), then you have to say to Wayne: “you’ve got a point”.
I’m not even a native English speaker, but: “Men, learn to read!” Wayne never said there is no possibility for a man-woman relationship. But if you are becoming too open to a girl, man, you’ve doing it wrong! Man up! You are trying to replenish your feelings without commitment, and this is not a manly thing to do. Men will not put their hands in your head and say: “Oh! poor you!”, they will help (and this might inflict some kind of pain) and that’s what he’s fleeing from.
Finally: if you esteem her company, she turns you on, lifts you up, why the hell she is not “marriage material”? And I understand the point: if she’s not marriage material, why would you be friends to her? If you don’t trust her to be your wife, why would you trust to be your friend? If she has wrong ideas about family and a long term relationship, why not try to convince her of the opposite?
I would give 10 “thumbs up” to Anthony if I had them. That was the best comment so far. Please forgive me for commenting three in a row.
From what I’ve learnt, marriage is only the beginning of more things to come. I am not married, but I know there are many things that can be worked out through the course of a marriage. That could be certain attitudes, habits, or skills. I don’t see how any woman cannot be ‘marriage material’, unless they are always looking to run off with another guy, or for any other reason in particular.
But like Anthony said, do you truly love her? I would also like to add – “Love always perseveres”
How would all you guys feel if the woman you marry as a dude for a “best friend.” I mean, come on, if your best friend is a member of the opposite sex, then once you get engaged or married your relationship with that friend will have to change considerably. Why would you bring something like that into a new marriage?
I am going to side with those who support Wayne’s response to the man who posted the question. You just should not have a majority of friends, or even best friend of the opposite sex (unless that person is your significant other…my wife is undoubtedly my best friend).
However, there are two different dynamics at work here. One is, staying friends after a break-up. The other is just have friends of the opposite sex, when there was not an initial romantic relationship. I feel the first is out of the question. There is just too much baggage and people not truly being honest with themselves and/or the other person. However the second issue is more complicated, because there is a lot of gray area. I went to school with many of the same people from the time I was 4 until I graduated high school, plus I knew many of these people before we ever started school. Obviously I was friends with girls, and I do still have some girl friends (read below). But my closest circle of friends was other men…and it is still that way today.
I am not (and I don’t think Wayne is) saying that men and women cannot be friends. I have friends that are women (other than my wife), but let me tell you the dynamic of my relationship with them. Most of these women came into my life through my relationship with other men or my wife, except maybe one or two exceptions of friendships from childhood that have survived the test of time. I interact with these women on a very respectful and non-intimate manner, and always in the presence of other people we know. I have talked to many of them about advice and to get a better understand of my wife and women in general. After my wife, my best girl friend is my wife’s best friend, and her husband is one of my best friends. I get all the female time, advice, exposure, feedback, wisdom I need from these relationships.
I know there are times having great friends of the opposite sex seems so great. You can try to gain perspective into the opposite sex, and hope it gives you a leg up on, or understanding them better. Also, everyone has nuances about their own gender that they don’t care too much for. Most girls I have known say they love hanging out with other guys because there isn’t the “cattiness” they experience with other girls. And there are many more reasons people will lay out to try and justify and validate opposite sex friendships. I just don’t agree with or believe those reasons. I see them as excuses. To truly grow and understand yourself as a man or woman better, you have to spend your time with other men and women. There are definitely men and women better and higher quality, strength, and overall character, so it is important to choose your friends wisely.
I will end on this note, for the original question asked. NONE OF MY EX-GIRLFRIENDS ARE MY FRIENDS. And I have dated some amazingly wonderful women, and, for a time, their absence was painful. Not to say I am not friendly if I run into any of them, sure I am, but I am not following them on Facebook, having them over to my house for dinner, meeting up with them after work, writing letters or emails, calling them, or keeping up with their life in any other way shape or form. But honestly, who has really continued to miss someone they used to date, even if they were amazing friends with great chemistry, after they have met someone else? If you know you don’t want to marry her then let her go. If she is asking for a commitment you cannot offer her then you owe it to her to let her go immediately. It is going to hurt you both no matter what, but man up and don’t drag it out any longer.
Damn, Wayne, this was TIGHT, man!
I’m just gonna go out there and say it, I believe women and men can have completely platonic relationships.. One doesn’t have to ‘bro it out’ all the time like in paragraph 8.
Just putting in my 2 cents, I feel like the article was great but was missing the option and availability of platonic relationships.
“If she’s not marriage material, why would I even remain friends?”
because romantic relationships are inherently different that platonic relationships. sometimes things that work in one situation do not work in the other. one of my very best friends is my ex. we get along much better as friends, in fact. the only part of the whole thing that i wold possibly admit being a bad idea was dating for so long before we figured that out!
and, honestly, if being friends with an ex is ruining your current/future relationships, then someone involved is being extremely immature. either you (and the ex) by not drawing very solid lines between friend and lover, or who you’re currently dating for not being able to comprehend such a thing as friendship, and only friendship.
i loved it when the guy i was dating (back in college) was friends with his exes, i think it shows maturity and geniality.
i know that, as a woman, my opinion has already been dismissed in the article, but it kind of hit home, so i though i’d share. and i don’t disagree about men also having men-friends, or that in some cases (like, depending on how the girl involved feels) being friends after is a very bad idea or simply won’t work.
I think the article is right on. I also think Edward Stedman’s comment is very good.
So you want to remain “best friends” with a girl but not be in a romantic relationship? Then consider this: When you marry some one else and your “best friend” girl marries some other guy, is this level of “best friends” relationship appropriate? When you are looking for a girl who “gets you”, shouldn’t you be turning to your wife and not to this “best friend” girl? When your “best friend” girl needs to turn to a guy for some companionship and understanding, shouldn’t she be turning to her husband? If you and your “best friend” girl turn to each other for companionship, won’t your respective spouses feel left out or jealous?
If the “best friends” relationship with this girl is inappropriate in a situation where each of you are married, then the “best friends” relationship (without any intention of marrying her) is inappropriate before you get married. Move on in your lives away from each other, and give each other space to start meaningful relationships with other people who are potential spouses!
[This is not to say that a married girl/guy can't be friends with the opposite sex. I'm married, and I'm still friends with girls who I've met both before and after my marriage. But the nature of my friendship with these girls is not one of "best friends". It is a friendship that keeps its distance from these girls, as I don't talk to them all the time and share all of my thoughts/feelings/etc. with them -- I do that with my wife instead. Also, my friendships with these other girls has a different flavor than when I was single, because my wife has a role in the friendship: for example, my wife is a friend of the girl too, or the girl has a significant other too and we hang out together as a couple.]
So I repeat: If the “best friends” relationship with this girl is inappropriate in a situation where each of you are married, then the “best friends” relationship is inappropriate BEFORE each of you get married.
I haven’t read through all of the comments, but I’ve read a lot of them, and I think some of you guys are missing a salient point: there is [casual, platonic] friendship between men & women, and there is ‘friendship’ between men & women who were once romantically involved…
I think maybe Wayne is cautioning against this inclination for men to want to “have their cake and eat it too” (whatever that expression means!).
It’s one thing if two people who are/were romantically involved mutually decide the relationship isn’t going anywhere and then decide to be friends. It’s quite another when one half (in this case, the woman) wants to take the relationship to the next level, the man doesn’t, but he still wants to be her “friend.”
Go through some serious, honest introspection about why you don’t want to be with this girl for the long haul, and if you’re still incapable of committing and you’re still convinced she’s not “the one” (for the ‘right’ reasons, not the ‘wrong’ reasons), then stop being selfish, let her go (kindly), and move on. And let her move on too — with dignity and without confusion. (I think women often interpret a man’s desire to remain “friends” after they’ve said they can’t commit to her as a sign of hope that things might one day work out between them.)
If you somehow find each other several years down the road and platonic, casual friendship actually seems possible –for both parties– then fine. But be prepared to let her go completely and to never enjoy the pleasure of her company or her friendship again. Because you probably don’t really deserve it even if you think you might.
I would like to add my $0.02 since I have been on the receiving end of that relationship. I dated my ex for two years, and we were each other’s best friends for another two. We decided to stay friends after the initial romantic relationship ended because we had so much in common, and we thought we both had good understanding of where we stood. We thought we knew we were not a good match for “happily ever after” but that we could really help each other out because we complemented each other in other ways.
What we were not prepared for was the deep down emotions we still had for each other. Eventually, he started to date others and I found myself overtaken by jealousy. The same thing happened to him when I dated others…and our friendship found itself on the edge of the cliff on numerous occasions. The right thing to do was to end it, which we did. I only wish we had ended it long before to save myself the headache and heartache of going through the turmoil over and over again.
My conclusion with this experience is this: men and women can be friends. Some of my closest friends are men. But men and women cannot be friends immediately after a relationship has ended because the friendship/relationship is just too chaotic at that point. That is not to say they cannot rekindle the friendship some time down the road, but it’s just too much too soon (and emotionally too raw) to do that right after the end of the romantic relationship.
“there is a sexual component at play in most friendships between men and women”
There are many men who do not find me attractive. (I know! Crazy, right?) I am short. I am assertive. Red beans and rice didn’t miss me.
And, amazingly, there are tons of guys that I don’t happen to find attractive AT ALL. For example, I prefer geeks. Are you good looking but not mathematically or scientifically inclined? No worries, I probably wasn’t your style anyway.
Not only that, but personality is a huge (for me anyway) part of attraction. I fell in love with my first boyfriend before I even saw him because of a conversation he was having behind me. You had me at “negate”.
So while I agree that men should immerse themselves in masculinity, and that men should have men friends, I do not agree with the whole ’sexual tension’ idea.
P.S. In this particular instance, however, remaining friends is just asking for trouble. Not recommended.
I agree that these two people cannot remain friends and that the desire to break her heart once then sticking around as ‘friends’ to mildly hurt her daily is selfish.
What I don’t understand is she’s ‘not marriage material.’ What the hell does that mean?
I am a chick, and I 100% agree with everything you said. I tell my friends all the time there is no point at all in being friends with an ex. They are an ex for a reason, and the reason is, you have tested them for a life partner and they weren’t it, so what else could you possibly need to know from them? I will probably take a lot of slack for saying that, but on a personal note to all of you… not speaking to any of my ex’s has made everything 10x better, easier and less dramatic.
And to everyone who says men and women can be just friends, you’re right… as long as you’ve never slept together.
To all you women who think men and women can be best friends, I want you to try a little experiment. I want you to hit on your friend. Do what ever it is you do when you meet a guy you want to be intimate with. I guarantee you he won’t say no.
This is the first article I’ve seen here I very strongly disagree with.
I do not believe you can be as good of friends with someone you’ve had an intimate relationship with, but I do not think that seeking and amicable existence with said significant other is such an affront.
I firmly believe that men and women can have lasting platonic relationships that do not involve sexual ambiguity. Suggesting that all men are susceptible to the whims of their loins is a step backward from a less-archaic definition of masculinity.
There are times when relationships sour, when the most prudent course of action is to purge that other person for a period of time and allow indemnities to process. Yet, there are relationships which lasting feeling may simply wain without transgression.
To step back from the animosity that commonly comes in these situations and value a person, recognizing the profound impact they’ve had on your life—even if only to retain them as the occasional phone call for coffee—is a very noble thing by me.
i believe there is a sexual component in relationships between men and women.
there is a reason that it’s often problematic to have a very close friendship with someone of the opposite sex while having a significant other – the sexual component grows with closeness.
in a normal, not-too-close friendship, the sexual component is most often lesser, even negligible at times, and even more so in workplace relationships. that doesn’t mean it isn’t there – maybe there’s no such thing as platonic friendships between men and women, just a sexual component that’s negligible…
sex have also moved more and more out of the private sphere and into the public, along with the subjectification of morals and ethics, often according to what feels good. (and sex and flirting feels good…) and so young men and women today might well have even a big sexual component in friendships without recognizing it as anything special, since it’s so normal.
the divorce rate might also be an indication of this. there’s other causes for the increase in the divorce rate than increased social and economic freedom for women. there’s much more of sexual signals in public, revealing our bodies much more in public, flirting much more – without recognizing the effect it has on a supposedly exclusive, serious relationship. what we see as normal, and don’t even notice, before marriage (or equivalent) can proove hard to handle afterwards.
“Maybe sex has become predictable…”
Okay, this issue really gets under my skin. Why in the world are people who are dating / romantically involved obsessed with sex??? Furthermore, whatever happened to being, in my opinion, a true gentleman, and NEVER considering getting inside the lady’s nickers until after marriage?
Yes, I know I sound like I’m a hundred years old and completely out of touch with reality, but my idea of a true gentleman would never have asked their girlfriends / fiances to compromise their morals by “giving in” before marriage.
Trust me, guys, I’ve been married for over 18 years, and the spice does and will wear off, and things do get predictable. Big deal!! What do you think your sex life is going to be like when your celebrating your 50th wedding anniversary? Guys (and ladies reading this), we’re ALL going to get old, and our libido WILL die down. What’s going to keep us married to the beautiful ladies we married will NOT be how good she is in the sack at 70 years old, but the deeper meaning of love – the “in sickness and in health, for better or worse” part that no one wants to be responsible for. It’s the hard, difficult times that build up a relationship, and not bailing out at the first sign of difficulty or when “sex has become predictable.”
In short, man up and preserve, protect and defend our the honor of our ladies, and not ask / expect / demand them to put out before the wedding. You’ll have the rest of your life to explore and cultivate that aspect of your relationship.
I agree with Wayne. You can have lots of friends but close friends should be men. And for all you girls disagreeing, ask yourself if your husband was very close with a girl, but they are “just friends”, would it bother you? I bet it would. Close relationships with the opposite sex are best kept between you and your partner.
As for still being friends after a break-up. Doesn’t work. After awhile you may meet up again and be friendly but it cannot be planned. You need to break clean from ex-relationships or they will drag on and mess up your chances of forming a new one.
Staying friends with an ex with whom you still have even slight feelings for is selfish. Straight up. It makes you feel better and keeps you from having to do the hard task of going your separate ways. But it’s unfair to your future partners who have to deal with you hanging with your ex. Yeah they can try not to be jealous when that happens, but they will.
I know a guy who has stayed friends with his high school sweetheart. Even though they’re both now married to different people, they still have feelings for each other. The guy actually made his ex his “best man” at their wedding. If that isn’t unmanly and totally selfish (how do you think his bride felt??) I don’t know what is.
Overall, as a professional counselor also with a Master’s Degree I am somewhat ambivalent about this article. I think Wayne makes some very good points.
Like Wayne, I think the biggest question for the writer is what would he have to give up if he committed to this women. All behavior has a pay off be it material or psychological and his desire to not commit is the same. He needs to figure out what the pay off is, if he can still get it if he commits, and if not is this pay off worth giving up the relationship.
Second I think Wayne makes a good point about making a clean break. Dragging things out is often hurtful in the long run to both parties and creates a lot of confusion about what everyone’s role should be. Maybe he can be casual friends with her after sufficient time has past (several months or longer) but I don’t think it is realistic to remain “best friends.”
Third I think Wayne’s point about seeking support from other men is very important. Men have a different perspective from women and can meet other mens needs for camaraderie in a way that is different from women. I would certainly recommend that the writer seek out advice from male friends that now him well, but be wary that they may be invested in the relationship either continuing or ending, so be aware.
These positives being said I must respectfully disagree with some elements of Wayne’s post. While, I agree that there is and will always be some sexual elements to friendships with members of the opposite sex simply because of the way our brain is wired I do not think that it is as dire as Wayne makes it seem. I believe that these sexual feelings can be largely unconscious and that a well adjusted man who has a firm set of boundaries can have friendships with women without being feminized or constantly trying to get in to their pants. I think that a well balanced man should be able to have friends of both genders and should monitor all of his friendships to ensure that they don’t become overly dependant on one another.
Overall I think we were all hampered by lack of information. We don’t know this man or his girlfriend, we don’t know what he means by “marriage material” or “best friend” and we don’t know what other issues may be lurking in the shadows. I hope that the writer will find someone who does now the answer to these questions (either a friend or a professional counselor/therapist) to help air this out so that he can do what is best for both himself and his girlfriend.
oooops
typo
“Maybe he can be casual friends with her after sufficient time has past (several months or longer) but I don’t think it is realistic to remain “best friends.””
Should say unrealistic not realistic.
my bad.
Maybe he could try telling her he’s enjoyed having her has a girlfriend for the last two years but as he doesn’t consider her ‘marriage material’, he thinks it’s best they break up so he can find a girlfriend who does meet his standards.
Then let’s see if she offers to stay friends.
OK, I found this website while looking for information on guys/girls staying friends post romantic involvement. I’m actually going through this right now. He’s back with his ex, but we are trying to stay friends and have been emailing. I thought it would be possible, but am having a very hard time with it. We have a lot of common friends which makes a clean break difficult. Still, I am beginning to realize that despite still caring about each other…friendship isn’t possible right now and breaking off contact completely is the healthiest thing to do.
Great article and reader feedback. It’s helped me make the right decision even though I wish it weren’t so.
Tom from Vancouver – sorry to disappoint you, but (in my younger single days) I did hit on male friends who said “no” to me. One of them is still a very close friend today. It’s simply not true that men will jump anything girl-shaped if it’s offered.
Sometimes there just isn’t any sexual chemistry. Sometimes there’s only a little spark, and it’s nothing that will ever happen. Sometimes you are attracted to the other person, but you’re a grownup and you set it aside.
I agree with Wayne’s advice to *this* man, but I cringe at his comments about ‘feminized’ men and how men and women really can’t ever be friends. That runs dangerously close to the idea that women pretty much only have one purpose.
We should always be friendly with our ex’s if that’s possible…it’s not always. But being friends, people who share intimate thoughts and feelings, who pursue experiences with each other as a basis for continuing relationship is neither practical or wise.
Life has choices, grow a set and make them.
So Wayne is basically saying that women have only one value to men and that is a sexual/romantic relationship? I agree this guy needs to piss or get off the pot about this girl but to say that women are only good for sex/relationships and that they should otherwise be avoided is silly.
“Whether you’d admit to it without water boarding, there is a sexual component at play in most friendships between men and women.”
Not true. I do act differently around women differently than men, obviously I don’t go letting ‘em rip when a lady is around, but there are women, believe it or not, who I have no interest in fucking. This is either because they are not physically attractive to me, or they have boyfriends who are friends of mine. This is such an older generation thing to say, reminds my dad is absolutely convinced i want to hook up with my female housemates. Get over it, its 2009.
otoh, i’ve found you can be friendly with your ex, but not friends in any real sense of the word. But that has more to do with your shared past than sexual politics.
if some man he has a girlfriend ,but also he has a girl friend too. they talk to each other at msn everyday. see each other twice a week. (ski, bar,spa.gym,coffee shop ect.) but there is no physical relationship. how do you think of the friendship? is it in the freinds zone or a little bit too much?
Great site and post! I’m on the moderately anti-platonic side favouring the original post. I also like the points about being friendly but not friends and non-ex-girlfriends as friends with both you and the wife.