Comments on: Clip the Tip? Point/Counterpoint on Male Circumcision http://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/ Men's Interests and Lifestyle Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:36:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Joehttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23093 Joe Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:29:34 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23093 @Lee - That is just fine. But it doesn't quite work for those who suffered significant complication from it. It happens more often than you think. @Lee – That is just fine. But it doesn’t quite work for those who suffered significant complication from it. It happens more often than you think.

]]> By: Erichttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23092 Eric Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:09:14 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23092 It seems that the people who are in favor of infant circumcision tend to be women and circumcised men. We rarely ever hear of any uncut men in favor of infant circumcision. I think that says enough about the validity (or lack thereof) of so-called "health benefits" of routine infant circumcision.Some women may prefer a circumcised penis because it looks cleaner. In my opinion, that's no different from a man saying a vagina is dirty. We need to have a mature attitude about genitalia and realize that what is natural is normal. If nature/God had intended men not to have foreskin, then men wouldn't be born with foreskin. It seems that the people who are in favor of infant circumcision tend to be women and circumcised men. We rarely ever hear of any uncut men in favor of infant circumcision. I think that says enough about the validity (or lack thereof) of so-called “health benefits” of routine infant circumcision.

Some women may prefer a circumcised penis because it looks cleaner. In my opinion, that’s no different from a man saying a vagina is dirty. We need to have a mature attitude about genitalia and realize that what is natural is normal. If nature/God had intended men not to have foreskin, then men wouldn’t be born with foreskin.

]]> By: Bobhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23090 Bob Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:33:15 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23090 this is what the Butchers actually do... Circumcision What Is Lost? http://mothersagainstcirc.org/lost.html "To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information." Circumcision Policy Statement American Academy of Pediatrics March 1, 1999 When a baby boy's normal intact penis is circumcised, this is what is lost -- forever: *1. The foreskin, which comprises up to 50% (sometimes more) of the mobile skin system of the penis. If unfolded and spread out flat, the average adult foreskin would measure about 15 square inches (the size of a 3 x 5-inch index card). This highly specialized tissue normally covers the glans and protects it from abrasion, drying, callusing (keratinization), and contaminants of all kinds. The effect of glans keratinization on human sexuality has never been studied. *2. The frenar band of soft ridges -- the primary erogenous zone of the male body. Loss of this delicate belt of densely innervated, sexually responsive tissue reduces the fullness and intensity of sexual response. *3. The foreskin's "gliding action"-- the hallmark mechanical feature of the normal, natural, intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth, comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding action, the corona of the circumcised penis can function as a one-way valve, scraping vaginal lubricants out into the drying air and making artificial lubricants essential for pleasurable intercourse. *4. Thousands of coiled fine-touch mechanoreceptors called Meissner's corpuscles, the most important sensory component of the foreskin, encapsulated Vater-Pacinian cells, Merkel's cells, nociceptors, and branches of the dorsal nerve and perineal nerve. Altogether, between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which can feel slight motion and stretch, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture are lost. *5. The frenulum, the highly erogenous V-shaped web-like tethering structure on the underside of the glans; frequently amputated along with the foreskin, or severed, either of which destroys its function and potential for pleasure. 6. Approximately half of the temperature-sensitive smooth muscle sheath called the dartos fascia. 7. The immunological defense system of the soft mucosa. This produces both plasma cells that secrete immunoglobulin antibodies and antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as the pathogen-killing enzyme lysozyme. 8. Lymphatic vessels, the loss of which reduces the lymph flow within that part of the body's immune system. 9. Estrogen receptors - the purpose of which is not yet fully understood and needs further study.*10. The apocrine glands of the inner foreskin, which produce pheromones - nature's powerful, silent, invisible behavioral signals to potential sexual partners. The effect of their absence on human sexuality has never been studied. *11. Sebaceous glands, which lubricate and moisturize the foreskin and glans, normally a protected internal organ - like the tongue or vagina. 12. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, a first line component of the body's immune system in a whole penis. 13. The pink to red to dark purple natural coloration of the glans. The connective tissue which protectively fuses the foreskin and glans together while the penis develops is ripped apart during circumcision, wounding the glans and the foreskin remnant, leaving them raw and subject to infection, scarring, pitting, shrinkage, and eventual discoloration. *14. Some of the penis length and penis circumference because its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is now missing, making the circumcised penis truncated and thinner than a full-sized intact penis. *15. Several feet of blood vessels, including the frenular artery and branches of the dorsal artery. The loss of this rich vascularity interrupts normal blood flow to the shaft and glans of the penis, damaging the natural function of the penis and altering its development. 16. Every year boys lose their entire penises from circumcision accidents and infections. They are then "sexually reassigned" by castration and "transgender surgery," and expected to live their lives as "females." 17. Every year many boys lose their lives from the complications of circumcision, a fact the billion-dollar-a-year circumcision industry in the U.S. obscures and ignores. 18. By encoding violence on the brain the infant's bonding with its mother is disrupted, with indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate physical contact is inhibited or lost, and in its place a sense of betrayal is instilled in the infant. (*19. Although never studied scientifically, contemporary evidence suggests that a penis without its foreskin lacks the capacity for the subtle neurological "cross-communication" that occurs only during contact between mucous membranes and which contributes to the experience of sexual pleasure. Amputating an infant boy's multi-functional foreskin is a "low-grade neurological castration" [Immerman], which diminishes the intensity of the entire sexual experience for both the circumcised male and his partner.)*Loss of each of these items reduces sexual pleasure, gratification, and fulfillment. Immerman, R. S. and Mackey, W.C., "A Proposed Relationship Between Circumcision and Neural Reorganization," J of Genetic Psych, 1998. Immerman, R. S. and Mackey, W. C., "A biocultural analysis of circumcision," Social Biology 1998;4:265-275Compiled by Gary L. Harryman glharryman@aol.com 4/6/99 - Last Revision 5/25/99See Also: Glossary Return to Mothers Against Circumcision Homepage this is what the Butchers actually do…
Circumcision
What Is Lost?
http://mothersagainstcirc.org/lost.html
“To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants
should be given accurate and unbiased information.”
Circumcision Policy Statement
American Academy of Pediatrics
March 1, 1999
When a baby boy’s normal intact penis is circumcised, this is what is lost — forever:
*1. The foreskin, which comprises up to 50% (sometimes more) of the mobile skin system of the penis. If unfolded and spread out flat, the average adult foreskin would measure about 15 square inches (the size of a 3 x 5-inch index card). This highly specialized tissue normally covers the glans and protects it from abrasion, drying, callusing (keratinization), and contaminants of all kinds. The effect of glans keratinization on human sexuality has never been studied.
*2. The frenar band of soft ridges — the primary erogenous zone of the male body. Loss of this delicate belt of densely innervated, sexually responsive tissue reduces the fullness and intensity of sexual response.
*3. The foreskin’s “gliding action”– the hallmark mechanical feature of the normal, natural, intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth, comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding action, the corona of the circumcised penis can function as a one-way valve, scraping vaginal lubricants out into the drying air and making artificial lubricants essential for pleasurable intercourse.
*4. Thousands of coiled fine-touch mechanoreceptors called Meissner’s corpuscles, the most important sensory component of the foreskin, encapsulated Vater-Pacinian cells, Merkel’s cells, nociceptors, and branches of the dorsal nerve and perineal nerve. Altogether, between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which can feel slight motion and stretch, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture are lost.
*5. The frenulum, the highly erogenous V-shaped web-like tethering structure on the underside of the glans; frequently amputated along with the foreskin, or severed, either of which destroys its function and potential for pleasure.
6. Approximately half of the temperature-sensitive smooth muscle sheath called the dartos fascia.
7. The immunological defense system of the soft mucosa. This produces both plasma cells that secrete immunoglobulin antibodies and antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as the pathogen-killing enzyme lysozyme.
8. Lymphatic vessels, the loss of which reduces the lymph flow within that part of the body’s immune system.
9. Estrogen receptors – the purpose of which is not yet fully understood and needs further study.

*10. The apocrine glands of the inner foreskin, which produce pheromones – nature’s powerful, silent, invisible behavioral signals to potential sexual partners. The effect of their absence on human sexuality has never been studied.
*11. Sebaceous glands, which lubricate and moisturize the foreskin and glans, normally a protected internal organ – like the tongue or vagina.
12. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, a first line component of the body’s immune system in a whole penis.
13. The pink to red to dark purple natural coloration of the glans. The connective tissue which protectively fuses the foreskin and glans together while the penis develops is ripped apart during circumcision, wounding the glans and the foreskin remnant, leaving them raw and subject to infection, scarring, pitting, shrinkage, and eventual discoloration.
*14. Some of the penis length and penis circumference because its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is now missing, making the circumcised penis truncated and thinner than a full-sized intact penis.
*15. Several feet of blood vessels, including the frenular artery and branches of the dorsal artery. The loss of this rich vascularity interrupts normal blood flow to the shaft and glans of the penis, damaging the natural function of the penis and altering its development.
16. Every year boys lose their entire penises from circumcision accidents and infections. They are then “sexually reassigned” by castration and “transgender surgery,” and expected to live their lives as “females.”
17. Every year many boys lose their lives from the complications of circumcision, a fact the billion-dollar-a-year circumcision industry in the U.S. obscures and ignores.
18. By encoding violence on the brain the infant’s bonding with its mother is disrupted, with indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate physical contact is inhibited or lost, and in its place a sense of betrayal is instilled in the infant.
(*19. Although never studied scientifically, contemporary evidence suggests that a penis without its foreskin lacks the capacity for the subtle neurological “cross-communication” that occurs only during contact between mucous membranes and which contributes to the experience of sexual pleasure. Amputating an infant boy’s multi-functional foreskin is a “low-grade neurological castration” [Immerman], which diminishes the intensity of the entire sexual experience for both the circumcised male and his partner.)

*Loss of each of these items reduces sexual pleasure, gratification, and fulfillment.
Immerman, R. S. and Mackey, W.C., “A Proposed Relationship Between Circumcision and Neural Reorganization,” J of Genetic Psych, 1998.
Immerman, R. S. and Mackey, W. C., “A biocultural analysis of circumcision,” Social Biology 1998;4:265-275

Compiled by Gary L. Harryman glharryman@aol.com
4/6/99 – Last Revision 5/25/99

See Also: Glossary
Return to Mothers Against Circumcision Homepage

]]> By: Leehttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23089 Lee Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:15:33 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23089 Honestly, I really don't care either way on this topic. I am circumsised and have friends who are and are not. Heck, I remember one night a bunch of us were sitting around a campfire when someone broached the topic as they ran into the protesters of circumsision. None of us had even heard that this was such a big deal. We talked and laughed about it, listedn as we were told the reasons against circumsision and honestly still didn't care.The tip of my penis does not define me as a man. I can still get hard, I still have immense pleasure and can pleasure my woman. There is not a single part of me that does not work and that I do not enjoy. I am not less of a man and I think nothing less of my father.Sorry, but if you are one of those that can only define yourself by whether you have some skin over your penis or not, you really aren't much of a man to begin with.I just can't care about this topic. Honestly, I really don’t care either way on this topic. I am circumsised and have friends who are and are not. Heck, I remember one night a bunch of us were sitting around a campfire when someone broached the topic as they ran into the protesters of circumsision. None of us had even heard that this was such a big deal. We talked and laughed about it, listedn as we were told the reasons against circumsision and honestly still didn’t care.

The tip of my penis does not define me as a man. I can still get hard, I still have immense pleasure and can pleasure my woman. There is not a single part of me that does not work and that I do not enjoy. I am not less of a man and I think nothing less of my father.

Sorry, but if you are one of those that can only define yourself by whether you have some skin over your penis or not, you really aren’t much of a man to begin with.

I just can’t care about this topic.

]]> By: Robert Samsonhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23087 Robert Samson Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:27:27 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23087 "Well I have a child on the way and my wife and I both agree if it is a boy he will be circumcised. Our basis for this was disease. The studies showing that it is harder to contract HIV just made up our mind."You do know that these studies claiming this were seriously flawed, and that this reduction is not seen in the real world--in fact, the opposite? One needs to critically analyze any claim for a benefit for circumcision. Over the 100+ years of these claims of benefits, and not a single one has stood. This track record speaks volumes. “Well I have a child on the way and my wife and I both agree if it is a boy he will be circumcised. Our basis for this was disease. The studies showing that it is harder to contract HIV just made up our mind.”

You do know that these studies claiming this were seriously flawed, and that this reduction is not seen in the real world–in fact, the opposite? One needs to critically analyze any claim for a benefit for circumcision. Over the 100+ years of these claims of benefits, and not a single one has stood. This track record speaks volumes.

]]> By: Morkhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23086 Mork Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:19:56 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23086 Just a point on the argument about 'looking like your dad.' I'm circumcised and my dad is too. But if I have a son, I don't think I will circumcise him. I don't feel a need to have him look like me in that way. And even if I did, that wouldn't seem like a good enough reason. It's part of parenting to respond to your kid's questions with age-appropriate answers. So when a son asks a father why his dinger looks different, the father should tell him the age-appropriate truth. Like, "I was born in a country where they do that..." Or "Back then it was normal to do that, now it isn't so much." The kid will be on to other questions in no time, like why yours is hairy and his isn't. And then you give another age-appropriate answer to that. Incidently, I grew up in a country where I was the only circumcised boy around. I asked my dad about it and he told me, "They don't circumcise here as much as in America." That was good enough for me. Just a point on the argument about ‘looking like your dad.’ I’m circumcised and my dad is too. But if I have a son, I don’t think I will circumcise him. I don’t feel a need to have him look like me in that way. And even if I did, that wouldn’t seem like a good enough reason. It’s part of parenting to respond to your kid’s questions with age-appropriate answers. So when a son asks a father why his dinger looks different, the father should tell him the age-appropriate truth. Like, “I was born in a country where they do that…” Or “Back then it was normal to do that, now it isn’t so much.” The kid will be on to other questions in no time, like why yours is hairy and his isn’t. And then you give another age-appropriate answer to that. Incidently, I grew up in a country where I was the only circumcised boy around. I asked my dad about it and he told me, “They don’t circumcise here as much as in America.” That was good enough for me.

]]> By: Erichttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23084 Eric Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:55:18 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23084 Regarding any studies that supposedly show that it's harder to get a disease when circumcised, I have to question that argument. I don't really see how removal of the foreskin would make it any harder to get HIV or penile cancer. If you're really concerned about getting a disease, you can use a condom, or don't have sex; I think removal of the foreskin is going a little too far. Regarding any studies that supposedly show that it’s harder to get a disease when circumcised, I have to question that argument. I don’t really see how removal of the foreskin would make it any harder to get HIV or penile cancer. If you’re really concerned about getting a disease, you can use a condom, or don’t have sex; I think removal of the foreskin is going a little too far.

]]> By: Ianhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23083 Ian Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:40:13 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23083 Well I have a child on the way and my wife and I both agree if it is a boy he will be circumcised. Our basis for this was disease. The studies showing that it is harder to contract HIV just made up our mind. Well I have a child on the way and my wife and I both agree if it is a boy he will be circumcised. Our basis for this was disease. The studies showing that it is harder to contract HIV just made up our mind.

]]> By: miss morgan pottshttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23079 miss morgan potts Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:44:26 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23079 Though my current boyfriend is circumcised, I consider the procedure to be unnecessary and purely cosmetic. Just as female circumcision is rooted in tradition and outdated notions about sex (myths about masturbation, for example), so is male circumcision.I've been with both circumcised and uncircumcised men, and cosmetically neither is more appealing than the other so long as it's clean. Performance is far more important than whether or not the foreskin is intact. Though my current boyfriend is circumcised, I consider the procedure to be unnecessary and purely cosmetic. Just as female circumcision is rooted in tradition and outdated notions about sex (myths about masturbation, for example), so is male circumcision.

I’ve been with both circumcised and uncircumcised men, and cosmetically neither is more appealing than the other so long as it’s clean. Performance is far more important than whether or not the foreskin is intact.

]]> By: cristofhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23076 cristof Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:01:04 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23076 i am a filipino-american in my early 20's. as a filipino tradition boys are circumcised in their early adolescent years as a rites of passage into manhood. i honestly got caught up into the whole thing and when i was a teenager i had the procedure done.i wish i didn't though. i feel a big part of me is missing. and it's so true about the sensitivity. and the more i think about why i did the process was all really pointless.when i have sons i'm opting to not have them go through it. i am a filipino-american in my early 20’s. as a filipino tradition boys are circumcised in their early adolescent years as a rites of passage into manhood. i honestly got caught up into the whole thing and when i was a teenager i had the procedure done.

i wish i didn’t though. i feel a big part of me is missing. and it’s so true about the sensitivity. and the more i think about why i did the process was all really pointless.

when i have sons i’m opting to not have them go through it.

]]> By: John Rhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23074 John R Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:39:56 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23074 I say this {like the old Purina Dog Chow commercial}"Wonderbar!" Being circumcised "makes me very happy" :) I say this {like the old Purina Dog Chow commercial}

“Wonderbar!”
Being circumcised “makes me very happy” :)

]]> By: Bobhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23068 Bob Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:27:23 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23068 This is a email from a young fellow advising what had happened to him and the following email he sent to his father. For all you people who circumcised their sons against the advice of every medical organisation in the world, but quite happy to run on the lies of circumcisers, I only hope your sons think so endearing of you when they are old enough to articulate it. email 1.. as some of you may know, today is my 18th birthday. so a couple of minutes ago i was unwrapping some presents. the first one was "i am america and so can you" which i've been wanting to get. so i reached for the second one and when i opened it i got the crap scared out of me. out of some extremely weird coincidence they got me a book entitled "foreskin's lament"... they have no idea about what i'm doing or how much i resent them for doing what they did, so when i opened it i started sweating and shaking like crazy. so i was wondering "have they found out?" but no, they explained to me that it's a funny book that they think i would like. i couldn't believe it but there it was. i wanted to jump up and scream at them for even mentioning the word, but instead i just came up to my room, and now here i am, in my room. i just couldn't believe it. i just sent my dad an email, he'll probably get it tomorrow at work. here is what i said....................................you and mom just went up the hill on a dogwalk, and i'm sitting here and i decided to write this message. i'm tired of keeping this secret from you and right now i don't know weather or not it's still a secret. that book that you got me could have been a coincidence or it could be you trying to tell me that you know what's wrong with me, honestly i have no idea what it is. i've been trying to tell you since i found out back in February but i've found myself completely unable to do it. i found that it's easier to say it through an email and not strait to your faces. so what is it that i'm talking about? well i'm sure that you have figured it out already but i'll go ahead and say it anyways. i found out that i was circumcised last February and i've resented the two of you a little more every single day.it completely destroyed me when i found out because i feel as if you don't think of me as a person, instead i think you see me (or saw me) as a pet that doesn't have any thoughts ideas or opinions of its own. and that's why you said "yes" to that doctor 18 years ago, because you thought that i wouldn't be able to make the decision myself. it's as if you believed that my body belongs to you, and not me. as if you thought that i don't have the right to make this life changing decision myself because i am your property.that's why i've been treating you the way i have for almost a year. i'm sure you've noticed that i go out of my way to not be in the same room as either of you, and how i treat you with as much disrespect as i dare. i feel as if i can't trust anyone any more because the two people that i trusted most in life turned out to be the ones that have hurt me the most. i'm sure you've also noticed that i've been playing video games a lot more than i used to, i find that it's the only way for me to be able to release my anger and resentment for you. that's right, this is the reason why i've been playing video games so much and i think that without them i probably would have turned to drugs to try to get rid of my problems. i'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything, it's just the truth. this is how i've felt every day since i found out. i can't get it out of my head, i'm thinking about it all the time and it's driving me crazy. nobody (especially my age) should ever have to go through what i'm going through. and i shouldn't have to, i shouldn't be having this problem, i shouldn't have been circumcised.you spent about 2 to 300 dollars to have me circumcised, but i would give anything to have it undone, anything. but i can't, it's a permanent change that i got no say in even though my body should belong to me and me alone, and i can't believe that out of all the people in the world who had done it, it was the two of you. i understand that you didn't think that i would intemperate it this way. you were probably thinking that i should "look like dad" or something like that, but i still resent you for it and i don't think i'll ever be able to forgive you.thank you for giving me that book, if you hadn't i probably would have kept this to myself a lot longer and i probably would end up in an even worse condition than i am in now. i still haven't told anyone > i have some websites that i would like you to see. unfortunately gmail isn't giving me the option to make links at the moment so you will have to type them into the URL thing yourself (or copy and paste)norm.orghttp://www.notjustskin.org/en/index.html http://www.notjustskin.org/en/circumcisionfaq.html http://www.notjustskin.org/en/Story-Circumcised-as-Adult.html This is a email from a young fellow advising what had happened to him and the following email he sent to his father.
For all you people who circumcised their sons against the advice of every medical organisation in the world, but quite happy to run on the lies of circumcisers, I only hope your sons think so endearing of you when they are old enough to articulate it.
email 1..
as some of you may know, today is my 18th birthday. so a couple of
minutes ago i was unwrapping some presents. the first one was “i am
america and so can you” which i’ve been wanting to get. so i reached
for the second one and when i opened it i got the crap scared out of
me. out of some extremely weird coincidence they got me a book
entitled “foreskin’s lament”… they have no idea about what i’m doing
or how much i resent them for doing what they did, so when i opened it
i started sweating and shaking like crazy. so i was wondering “have
they found out?” but no, they explained to me that it’s a funny book
that they think i would like. i couldn’t believe it but there it was.
i wanted to jump up and scream at them for even mentioning the word,
but instead i just came up to my room, and now here i am, in my room.
i just couldn’t believe it.
i just sent my dad an email, he’ll probably get it tomorrow at work.
here is what i said………………………………

you and mom just went up the hill on a dogwalk, and i’m sitting here
and i decided to write this message. i’m tired of keeping this secret
from you and right now i don’t know weather or not it’s still a
secret. that book that you got me could have been a coincidence or it
could be you trying to tell me that you know what’s wrong with me,
honestly i have no idea what it is. i’ve been trying to tell you since
i found out back in February but i’ve found myself completely unable
to do it. i found that it’s easier to say it through an email and not
strait to your faces. so what is it that i’m talking about? well i’m
sure that you have figured it out already but i’ll go ahead and say it
anyways. i found out that i was circumcised last February and i’ve
resented the two of you a little more every single day.

it completely destroyed me when i found out because i feel as if you
don’t think of me as a person, instead i think you see me (or saw me)
as a pet that doesn’t have any thoughts ideas or opinions of its own.
and that’s why you said “yes” to that doctor 18 years ago, because you
thought that i wouldn’t be able to make the decision myself. it’s as
if you believed that my body belongs to you, and not me. as if you
thought that i don’t have the right to make this life changing
decision myself because i am your property.

that’s why i’ve been treating you the way i have for almost a year.
i’m sure you’ve noticed that i go out of my way to not be in the same
room as either of you, and how i treat you with as much disrespect as
i dare. i feel as if i can’t trust anyone any more because the two
people that i trusted most in life turned out to be the ones that have
hurt me the most. i’m sure you’ve also noticed that i’ve been playing
video games a lot more than i used to, i find that it’s the only way
for me to be able to release my anger and resentment for you. that’s
right, this is the reason why i’ve been playing video games so much
and i think that without them i probably would have turned to drugs to
try to get rid of my problems. i’m not trying to make you feel bad or
anything, it’s just the truth. this is how i’ve felt every day since i
found out. i can’t get it out of my head, i’m thinking about it all
the time and it’s driving me crazy. nobody (especially my age) should
ever have to go through what i’m going through. and i shouldn’t have
to, i shouldn’t be having this problem, i shouldn’t have been
circumcised.

you spent about 2 to 300 dollars to have me circumcised, but i would
give anything to have it undone, anything. but i can’t, it’s a
permanent change that i got no say in even though my body should
belong to me and me alone, and i can’t believe that out of all the
people in the world who had done it, it was the two of you. i
understand that you didn’t think that i would intemperate it this way.
you were probably thinking that i should “look like dad” or something
like that, but i still resent you for it and i don’t think i’ll ever
be able to forgive you.

thank you for giving me that book, if you hadn’t i probably would have
kept this to myself a lot longer and i probably would end up in an
even worse condition than i am in now. i still haven’t told anyone >
i have some websites that i would like you to see. unfortunately gmail
isn’t giving me the option to make links at the moment so you will
have to type them into the URL thing yourself (or copy and paste)

norm.org

http://www.notjustskin.org/en/index.html
http://www.notjustskin.org/en/circumcisionfaq.html
http://www.notjustskin.org/en/Story-Circumcised-as-Adult.html

]]> By: Bobhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23065 Bob Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:07:22 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23065 it is a parents right to do what they feel is best for their child. thats it. end of discussion May I say something here to this outlandish statement......(from the Australian viewpoint)Although a number of Australian jurisdictions have acted to outlaw femal genital cutting, equal protection under law has not been afforded to unconsenting minors who happen to boys. (However There is action being undertaken to bring this disparity to light through the discrimination legislation) In the light of Marions case(Department of Health and Community Services V JWB and SMB (1992) 175 CLR 218), it is now evident that even parents cannot provide legal consent for an irreversable, non therapeutic circumcision, Moreover, there are no medical indications for neonatal circumcision (Australian Association of Paediatric Surgeons, Guidelines for circumcision(1996).Consequently, enforced or involuntary circumcision must now be considered as an assault causing grevious bodily harm (genital mutilation) Legal action is long overdue in Australia to protect the physical and sexual integrity of minors.The general rule in English criminal law, and reflecting in other common law jurisdictions, is that any application of force, no matter how slight, is a prima facie an assault. (Consent serves as a defence to assault that do not inflict actual bodily harm.Even in the absence of legislation specifically banning circumcision, those who assist in circumcision of a child without the patient's own fully informed consent are liable to prosecution. Accordingly to Price."Lawyers in common law Jurisdictions (England, The United States, Canada and Australia) have expressed the view that....non-therapeutic circumcision is, or at the very least is prima facie, a criminal assault...there has been no rebbuttal of that view.In Queensland, the Queensland law reform Commission concluded that on a strict interpretation of the assault provisions of the Queensland criminal code, routine circumcision could be regarded as a criminal act. I believe that in other States this would be the same.The Nuffield Committee stated:Gratuitous injury, that is injury that is not undertaken in order to avoid destruction, damage or degradation, remains unaceptable. This point is sometimes blurred by an assumption that it is the therapeutic context which licences what would otherwise be injury. In fact it is more precisely the therapeutic intent rather than the therapeutic context that justifies the action that otherwise would be seen as injury...Gratuitous and in particular malicious injury of human beings, and specifically human tissue, will always be unnaceptable, especially when inflicted in a therapeutic context...Treatment given by those who are medical practicioners will be acceptable only if guided by a therapeutic intention..Not withstanding this, some Australian medical doctors continue to benefit financially from Medicare's continued reimbursement of non-therapeutic genuital cutting. Some are demonstrably vehement about continuing mutilation, raising the questions as to their psychological motives.The practice of male circumcision creates two kinds of men, those who enjoy genital integrity and those who do not. Some of those men who do not enjoy genital integrity have various emotional issues relating to their deprivation of a whole penis by traumatic operation.Many circumcised doctors have an emotional need to defend their culture of origin and to rationalise their personal deprivation by the creation of medical literature asserting prophylactic benefits of circumcision. On the other hand , In my view their behaviour is rather suspiciously deviant. it is a parents right to do what they feel is best for their child. thats it. end of discussion
May I say something here to this outlandish statement……(from the Australian viewpoint)

Although a number of Australian jurisdictions have acted to outlaw femal genital cutting, equal protection under law has not been afforded to unconsenting minors who happen to boys. (However There is action being undertaken to bring this disparity to light through the discrimination legislation) In the light of Marions case(Department of Health and Community Services V JWB and SMB (1992) 175 CLR 218), it is now evident that even parents cannot provide legal consent for an irreversable, non therapeutic circumcision, Moreover, there are no medical indications for neonatal circumcision (Australian Association of Paediatric Surgeons, Guidelines for circumcision(1996).

Consequently, enforced or involuntary circumcision must now be considered as an assault causing grevious bodily harm (genital mutilation) Legal action is long overdue in Australia to protect the physical and sexual integrity of minors.

The general rule in English criminal law, and reflecting in other common law jurisdictions, is that any application of force, no matter how slight, is a prima facie an assault. (Consent serves as a defence to assault that do not inflict actual bodily harm.

Even in the absence of legislation specifically banning circumcision, those who assist in circumcision of a child without the patient’s own fully informed consent are liable to prosecution. Accordingly to Price.

“Lawyers in common law Jurisdictions (England, The United States, Canada and Australia) have expressed the view that….non-therapeutic circumcision is, or at the very least is prima facie, a criminal assault…there has been no rebbuttal of that view.

In Queensland, the Queensland law reform Commission concluded that on a strict interpretation of the assault provisions of the Queensland criminal code, routine circumcision could be regarded as a criminal act. I believe that in other States this would be the same.

The Nuffield Committee stated:

Gratuitous injury, that is injury that is not undertaken in order to avoid destruction, damage or degradation, remains unaceptable. This point is sometimes blurred by an assumption that it is the therapeutic context which licences what would otherwise be injury. In fact it is more precisely the therapeutic intent rather than the therapeutic context that justifies the action that otherwise would be seen as injury…Gratuitous and in particular malicious injury of human beings, and specifically human tissue, will always be unnaceptable, especially when inflicted in a therapeutic context…Treatment given by those who are medical practicioners will be acceptable only if guided by a therapeutic intention..

Not withstanding this, some Australian medical doctors continue to benefit financially from Medicare’s continued reimbursement of non-therapeutic genuital cutting. Some are demonstrably vehement about continuing mutilation, raising the questions as to their psychological motives.

The practice of male circumcision creates two kinds of men, those who enjoy genital integrity and those who do not. Some of those men who do not enjoy genital integrity have various emotional issues relating to their deprivation of a whole penis by traumatic operation.

Many circumcised doctors have an emotional need to defend their culture of origin and to rationalise their personal deprivation by the creation of medical literature asserting prophylactic benefits of circumcision. On the other hand , In my view their behaviour is rather suspiciously deviant.

]]> By: Joehttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23059 Joe Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:57:29 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23059 @Dan - Why is it every time there is a circumcision discussion someone bring up abortion? I am sure there are people against circumcision on both sides of that issue. And one's position on one has nothing to do with another.In any case, penile cancer really has nothing to do with circumcision, at least that is the position of the American Cancer Society (and has been for more than 10 years) http://tinyurl.com/ddzuk" In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other risk factors, such as smoking, personal hygiene, and the number of sexual partners.Most public health researchers believe that the risk of penile cancer is low among uncircumcised men without known risk factors living in the United States. Most experts agree that circumcision should not be recommended as a way to prevent penile cancer." @Dan – Why is it every time there is a circumcision discussion someone bring up abortion? I am sure there are people against circumcision on both sides of that issue. And one’s position on one has nothing to do with another.

In any case, penile cancer really has nothing to do with circumcision, at least that is the position of the American Cancer Society (and has been for more than 10 years) http://tinyurl.com/ddzuk

” In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other risk factors, such as smoking, personal hygiene, and the number of sexual partners.

Most public health researchers believe that the risk of penile cancer is low among uncircumcised men without known risk factors living in the United States. Most experts agree that circumcision should not be recommended as a way to prevent penile cancer.”

]]> By: Paulhttp://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22/clip-the-tip-pointcounterpoint-on-male-circumcision/#comment-23058 Paul Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:48:43 +0000 http://artofmanliness.com/?p=1760#comment-23058 I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the people suggesting that male circumcision is a human rights issue and should be outlawed would be perfectly willing to make a decision to kill that same young male if he were on the other side of his mother's uterine wall. It's amazing how a short trip down a 10cm-wide birth canal changes human rights so drastically.For the record, i'm circumcised, so are my sons, and i'm glad for it - the penile cancer figures alone should make it a no-brainer on the pro-circumcision side. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of the people suggesting that male circumcision is a human rights issue and should be outlawed would be perfectly willing to make a decision to kill that same young male if he were on the other side of his mother’s uterine wall. It’s amazing how a short trip down a 10cm-wide birth canal changes human rights so drastically.

For the record, i’m circumcised, so are my sons, and i’m glad for it – the penile cancer figures alone should make it a no-brainer on the pro-circumcision side.

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