What is your position on living with your fiancee?

What is your position on living with your fiancee?

It’s bad enough to have a marriage end in divorce and have your children taken away from you but it’s quite another when they are taken to the country of origin of an ex-wife. They might as well be on Mars for all practical purposes.

I also know some 40 year old marrieds whose husband likely believe everything is great(you know, cause they work and all and bring home money), but whose wives talk about them like dogs to other women. Many men, I’ve observed, seem content with their wives(likely because the men have gotten fat being married, lost their charm, lost their ambition, and their self-esteem) and have no clue how close they are to divorce.[/quote]

Of all the comments posted on this blog, this has got to be the most insightful and valuable, INMNSHO. It shows how little we men really know about women.

I am glad that a woman was brave enough to jump into an emotional cauldron of a subject and tell it like it is from a woman’s POV.

Now for some interesting facts:

[quote]Top 10 Divorce Myths
Nearly half of all American marriages end in divorce, yet many of us have the wrong information on splits. Here are the 10 worst myths about divorce:

1. The majority of men cheat on their wives — Truth: “The best-designed study says nearly 80 percent of men haven’t cheated on their wives,” says Dr. Orli Peter, Ph.D., a psychologist and divorce mediator.
2. Men dump their wives — Truth: Women initiate the majority of divorces.
3. Women pay a horrible economic penalty for divorce — Truth: Five years after the split, the average divorcee’s new household income often surpasses her original household’s.
4. Women regret divorce — Truth: Divorced women are happier as they take control of their lives.
5. Divorce hurts women more than men — Truth: Psychological tests show ex-wives surpass ex-husbands in emotional health.
6. Divorced men marry more easily than divorced men — Truth: Their stats are similar – 75 percent for women and 80 percent for men.
7. Children usually recover pretty quickly from the trauma — Truth: Splits trigger long-term personal problems.
8. Children of divorce are less likely to divorce — Truth: They’re much less likely to respect the bonds of matrimony.
9. Kids do better with stepfamilies than with single parents — Truth: Single parents do just as well.
10. Second marriages tend to be more successful — Truth: The divorce rate for second marriages is higher than for first marriages.

The Average Woman On The BIG Day
June is Wedding Month and Women’s Health offers these stats:

* 27 is the age the average bride first says “I do.”
* 29 is the age the average groom first says “I do.”
* 250 hours are spent to organize the average wedding.
* 15 percent of weddings get called off.
* The average woman’s top 3 wedding day worries are zits, rain, and embarrassing relatives.
* 10 to 20 pounds is the amount of weight the average woman wants to lose before tying the knot.
* The average wedding dress costs $1,505.
* The average cost to be a bridesmaid is $1,400.
* The average cost to attend a wedding is $500.
* The average bill for the big day is $27,852.
* 30 percent of weddings are paid for by the bride’s parents.
* 32 percent of weddings are paid for by the couple.
* The top gift on the average bride’s wish list is money.
* The average value of all gifts received by the couple is $14,000.

Men’s Health reports these findings from the National Association of Wedding Minsters:

* $2,000 is the average cost of an engagement ring.
* Florida is the state with the most divorces, with 56,712 in 2006.
* 8 is the average length in years of first marriages that end in divorce. [/quote]

I watched the struggle and heartache my Dad endured.

I tell you, marriage is no bed of roses. I have witnessed the breakup of nearly
all my parent’s friend’s marriages. And after 26 years of marriage myself, I’ve
witnessed the breakup of nearly all my friend’s marriages. I, for one will not
go there. I honestly believe that my husband and I are better people together
than we would be apart. For all the quirks and aggravations, it still has it’s
good side.

In fact, I believe I have been lazy lately in the marriage department. Now’s a
good time to shape up.

I am a housewife. American. Full-time stay at home and work at home mother. I am also college educated. The “problem” with American women verus foreign women from third world desolate nations is that we don’t actually “need” a provider. At least, not in the financial sense. American women(at least ones who come from, or who have made for themselves, a strong economic background) no longer need a financial “savior”. We have moved up Maslow’s needs heirarchy, and apparently many American men weren’t ever given the memo, still believing that “making 15% more money” makes their presense “for life” valid. The truth is, most American women could do without that additional income, especially if it has to be paid back in emotional trauma.

The marriageble women in this country(the women who many men might define as a “good” wife, not simply women who marry), the few left, are likely the least ambitious, the least intellectual, the most fervantly and dogmatically religious, and the most likely to want 15 children-or at least 3. There are still a few women left who are socialized into being submissive to a man out of fear of being alone or being poor, but most women in this country realize that opportunities and dreams can now be self-realized and no longer have to be lived vicariously through the world adventures of a husband. It’s a harsh reality that I didn’t see coming when I got married. I never knew how stifling marriage and even parenting would be to the other life(the one of freedom and ambition) that I imagined for myself.

Fortunately, my husband is an amazing human(not necessarily husband), and we both feel the same about this. In fact, one thing I hate the most is when he goes into “husband” mode. He will work and work and work, believing himself to be a “good” dutiful husband, until exhaustion. This is not what I wanted in a husband, a man willing to abuse himself and stifle his own social life and dreams and general wellbeing, just to live up to his potential as a “husband”. Further, it is not at all what I need. I am more than capable of working long, dull, hours for a buck. What I wanted was a friend, an equal, an occasional(when asked) advisor, a person to co-parent with, a partner is life’s adventures.

What marriage has done for us is boxed us into a prison of social and economic expecations that neither of us really bargained for. It has changed us, in that we feel we cannot change, without the other approving of the change. It has limited our social circle to mutally pre-approved friends. It has turned our love into a requirement…for life. We are no longer together at will(at least psychologically), we are bound/locked, imprisoned. Our love belongs to the state, and everyone else who depends on it for their own validation and selfworth.

If I had it to do again, I would not get married. Or, I’d wait until I were well into my 60’s or 70’s. There is something to say about the psychological effects of being “married”(i.e., hitched, locked, bound-all violent terms, by the way). Even if my husband and I do not remain married, we intend to co-parent daily, to stay together, and hopefully sell off those material things which force us to stay in one place as the world moves on. We will not make promises that we can’t keep, or will not want to keep(more than likely) 50 years from now. We wish to go back to loving each other as we did pre-marriage, back when we were just two individuals coming together because our hearts(not the law, or society) compelled us.

I’d also like to add that, at not even 30, at least half of my married friends are already divorced or hoping for one. Nearly all of my married male friends, no matter how hot they were 5 years ago, are now fat(or quickly approaching), and styless. My girlfriends have become manipulative grumblers for the most part, dissatisfied already with their mediocre lives, but too entrenched in the idea of marriage to do anything drastic.

I also know some 40 year old marrieds whose husband likely believe everything is great(you know, cause they work and all and bring home money), but whose wives talk about them like dogs to other women. Many men, I’ve observed, seem content with their wives(likely because the men have gotten fat being married, lost their charm, lost their ambition, and their self-esteem) and have no clue how close they are to divorce.

We could quibble over the meaning of statistics, but I fundamentally agree with what you’ve said, especially in your second paragraph.concerning selfless love. At the end of the day, that’s what it’s all about on so many levels.

It grieves me that I’ve experienced so many women whose attitude is “what’s in this for me today?”

When an understanding of history, philosophy, and spirituality are supplanted by a obsession with media, consumerism, and entertainment, should we even be surprised at our current state?

I agree with your overall point: that given a sufficiently sized sampling of marriages; statistics show that half will end in divorce. I think, from what you posted, that you agree with my underlying point. While I may be struggling to make it clear, my point is that probabilistically speaking, any individual couple’s chance (i.e. probability) of a marriage that does not end in divorce does not simply amount to a coin toss. When the probability of a particular outcome is known, as in the case of tossing a coin, it is trivial to predict the statistical outcome of 10,000,000 coin tosses. Conversely, it is not nearly as easy to come up with the probability of a given outcome (e.g. divorce) when only the statistics are known. Try predicting the average outcome of 10,000,000 marriages. If the current trend continues, maybe more than half will fail. The point being that divorce statistics and others like it are dynamic. They are a good indication of the aggregate status of the population at large, but do not represent probability of one outcome or the other for a particularly small subset of that population.

Secondly, when I said that spouses should try to make each other happy, I meant they should regard each other more than themselves. Each should put the other’s priorities, ambitions, feelings, wellbeing, comfort, and status in general above his/her own. It’s the Biblical golden rule (as opposed to “He who has the gold…rules), but on an intimate level. Do unto your wife/husband as you want her/him to do unto you. I know it’s easier said than done, but so are many worthwhile things. To borrow a thought, I think that marital love grows and matures in a healthy relationship from an initially somewhat selfish love (i.e. Eros, one based on ‘I love you, if you…’ or Phileo, ‘I love you, because you…’) into a selfless love (Agape, one more like ‘I love you, in spite of…’). Agape love says “I would die you for”. It is not contingent on each spouse fulfilling the desires of the other. Some marriages fail when a spouse’s “I love you, if ” or “because” reason is gone. People change, and consequently they “fall out of love”. In reality, they probably never learned to love each other selflessly.

“I have known people who, having been through a divorce, feel it would have been better to work through the problems in their first marriage. They are now part of the statistic but, on their own admission, need not have been.”

True enough. But nevertheless, the divorces did happen. 10 years after my first wife divorced me (over my strong resistance) she was still talking in terms of what a mistake she had made, how she regretted not having children, how she felt like an outcast at parties (because she wasn’t married), how she wasn’t finding the perfect guy she was after, how we could have worked it out, etc., etc. Doesn’t matter. At the time, she was absolutely adamant about getting a divorce, and now we are statistics as you say.

“If we could see divorce statistics of couples who learn these skills and those who do not, I’m sure we’d see two very different probabilities for divorce.”

Of course. But successful marriages are already factored into the statistics we have. Most people apparently don’t have, or don’t choose to use the skills you’re talking about. In our culture, if the marriage is contentious, it’s seen as more expeditious to simply bail out and get a replacement spouse. There are exceptions in certain ethnic or religious groups, but generally that’s the way it is. I might add that the multi-billion dollar family law / divorce industry supports this dysfunction at every turn.

When you say “That half of marriages fail does not signify that you have a 50/50 chance of ending up divorced.” who are you referring to? If you are referring to yourself as a unique individual, then perhaps you’re right. But statistics do not emerge from a vacuum, they show us the overall pattern that flows from the individual experiences of your friends, neighbors, co-workers . . . everyone. That’s the broader point I was making.

No, statistics do not determine our fate, but they do reflect the overall experience. Couples that do get along, and have long and happy marriages are already factored into the statistics.

I firmly believe there are certain life skills which hugely improve the chances of a couple staying together. We all get better at them as we go on, but sometimes not until we have learnt the hard way. These include never talking about your spouse in personal terms to friends and family, never criticising your spouse to anyone else, never saying anything to your spouse that’s intended to make them feel bad or small, accepting criticism from your spouse and correcting your faults and the things that annoy them, remembering that your spouse is the most wonderful person in the world, being on your spouse’s side, being loving, etc.

If we could see divorce statistics of couples who learn these skills and those who do not, I’m sure we’d see two very different probabilities for divorce.

Re: 1. You either misunderstand me or maybe I should have phrased it better. When I said statistics mean nothing to the individual, I mean that certain statistics bear no significance on an individual’s particular course. That a certain percentage of people contract cancer during their lifetime does not alter your chances of getting cancer. That half of marriages fail does not signify that you have a 50/50 chance of ending up divorced. Admittedly, the baby with a 1/3 chance of being born Chinese is a cheeky exaggeration of my point. It is no less poignant though. Statistics have shown, people born in the summer months have better educations, better jobs, and are healthier than people born in the winter. [http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-01/winter-baby-blues]. Does this information have any bearing, real or perceived, on the life of a December baby–(i.e. is a December baby destined for a short life as a burger flipper?). No.

I’ll respond to the other comment later. I have to eat dinner.