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> <channel><title>Comments on: Revisiting The Organization Man</title> <atom:link href="http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/</link> <description>Men&#039;s Interests and Lifestyle</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:31:41 +0000</lastBuildDate> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <item><title>By: Frank</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-22479</link> <dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:47:21 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-22479</guid> <description>We are forgetting the role of World War 2 in forming male roles for the 50s. In an era with a universal military obligation, what it meant to be a man &lt;i&gt;was&lt;/i&gt; to be an organization man. You submitted to rank, hierarchy, and authority and willingly put your life in its hands.When men came home from WW2, they wanted to leave the military life behind, but it had changed men and masculinity. Individuality was a lot less important than security and being a part of the new, stable, prosperous society you were coming back to.With very few exceptions, young men had entered manhood as young servicemembers, and older men&#039;s lives had been thwarted by 1930s social-economic conditions. There was very little alternative for either but to go with the program, a civilian society with an increasingly authoritarian character.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are forgetting the role of World War 2 in forming male roles for the 50s. In an era with a universal military obligation, what it meant to be a man <i>was</i> to be an organization man. You submitted to rank, hierarchy, and authority and willingly put your life in its hands.</p><p>When men came home from WW2, they wanted to leave the military life behind, but it had changed men and masculinity. Individuality was a lot less important than security and being a part of the new, stable, prosperous society you were coming back to.</p><p>With very few exceptions, young men had entered manhood as young servicemembers, and older men&#8217;s lives had been thwarted by 1930s social-economic conditions. There was very little alternative for either but to go with the program, a civilian society with an increasingly authoritarian character.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Kurt Eger</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-18570</link> <dc:creator>Kurt Eger</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:33:41 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-18570</guid> <description>I feel that society still acts in accordance with these views and that this is not a message about men as much as it is about humans in general. I feel all the same angst and disillusionment about society as is indicated on this site and in this book, but I don&#039;t believe that women are void of these same emotions and opinions. The writer William H. Whyte may have targeted men back when this book was written, but there is no way 50 years ago that anyone would have seen the liberal expansion of this society in all directions. When this book was first published was prior to society being made mature with the assasination of such key figures as John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X, etc. Society was idealistic and it was naive, all the things we lost when these men were killed for political reasons. This book was from a time before America had to look in the mirror with open eyes and see what we&#039;ve become, before we had to admit our faults and correct for them. The message is still true, but the audience is broader.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel that society still acts in accordance with these views and that this is not a message about men as much as it is about humans in general. I feel all the same angst and disillusionment about society as is indicated on this site and in this book, but I don&#8217;t believe that women are void of these same emotions and opinions. The writer William H. Whyte may have targeted men back when this book was written, but there is no way 50 years ago that anyone would have seen the liberal expansion of this society in all directions. When this book was first published was prior to society being made mature with the assasination of such key figures as John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X, etc. Society was idealistic and it was naive, all the things we lost when these men were killed for political reasons. This book was from a time before America had to look in the mirror with open eyes and see what we&#8217;ve become, before we had to admit our faults and correct for them. The message is still true, but the audience is broader.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Paul</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14917</link> <dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 03:55:18 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14917</guid> <description>If you live in a town with a volunteer fire department, consider joining.  Most have a social organization which contributes to the community via projects or donations.  VFD&#039;s are facing the same issues of declining membership.I enjoyed this post and look forward to the future one on fraternal organizations.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you live in a town with a volunteer fire department, consider joining.  Most have a social organization which contributes to the community via projects or donations.  VFD&#8217;s are facing the same issues of declining membership.</p><p>I enjoyed this post and look forward to the future one on fraternal organizations.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dennis</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14893</link> <dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:35:39 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14893</guid> <description>May I use snipets of this article to help recruit some of today&#039;s younger vets into the VFW? VFW Posts all over the country are closing down despite the influx of eligable people. I think if more people would read this article it would really make them think about what they really do with their spare time. It is also my theory that the younger members are going to be able to make these type of organizations more efficient and worthwhile as they will &#039;modernize&#039; the ways things are done inside these organizations through the use of computers.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I use snipets of this article to help recruit some of today&#8217;s younger vets into the VFW? VFW Posts all over the country are closing down despite the influx of eligable people. I think if more people would read this article it would really make them think about what they really do with their spare time. It is also my theory that the younger members are going to be able to make these type of organizations more efficient and worthwhile as they will &#8216;modernize&#8217; the ways things are done inside these organizations through the use of computers.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Steve</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14771</link> <dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:11:48 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14771</guid> <description>Another top-notch post - thank you</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another top-notch post &#8211; thank you</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nudels</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14701</link> <dc:creator>Nudels</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:07:48 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14701</guid> <description>To quote the great prophet Groucho:&quot;I don&#039;t want to join a club that will accept me as a member.&quot;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To quote the great prophet Groucho:</p><p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t want to join a club that will accept me as a member.&#8221;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Hrimgrimnir</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14699</link> <dc:creator>Hrimgrimnir</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:44:25 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14699</guid> <description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-14687&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Jonathon Howard&lt;/a&gt; -It really depends a great deal on where you live.  The best advice I could give is this - contact the local grand lodge in the area in which you live.I have been a mason for 4 years, and I enjoy it immensely.  I live in Alberta Canada, and can enlighten you on our processes only.  Each state or province in every country has rules that differ slightly.1) the candidate applies to join the lodge
2) the lodge votes to approve the member (usually a formality in a larger town - unless you light random fires and kick dogs you move on in the process
3) a committee is appointed to interview the candidate and discuss his thoughts on masonry and what masonry is all about
4) the committee reports back and if favourable the initiation process moves on.In general the qualifications are simple - a man must be of lawful age, of &quot;good report and well recommended&quot; and believe in a god of some sort.Look into it - I can only relate how many of us younger men are starting to get into something bigger than ourselves.  The &quot;old fogies&quot;  have great stories to tell.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a
href='#comment-14687' rel="nofollow">@Jonathon Howard</a> &#8211;</p><p>It really depends a great deal on where you live.  The best advice I could give is this &#8211; contact the local grand lodge in the area in which you live.</p><p>I have been a mason for 4 years, and I enjoy it immensely.  I live in Alberta Canada, and can enlighten you on our processes only.  Each state or province in every country has rules that differ slightly.</p><p>1) the candidate applies to join the lodge<br
/> 2) the lodge votes to approve the member (usually a formality in a larger town &#8211; unless you light random fires and kick dogs you move on in the process<br
/> 3) a committee is appointed to interview the candidate and discuss his thoughts on masonry and what masonry is all about<br
/> 4) the committee reports back and if favourable the initiation process moves on.</p><p>In general the qualifications are simple &#8211; a man must be of lawful age, of &#8220;good report and well recommended&#8221; and believe in a god of some sort.</p><p>Look into it &#8211; I can only relate how many of us younger men are starting to get into something bigger than ourselves.  The &#8220;old fogies&#8221;  have great stories to tell.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Jonathon Howard</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14687</link> <dc:creator>Jonathon Howard</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:34:12 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14687</guid> <description>@ FrankI started to join the Mason&#039;s before I was talked out if by friends... It is something I regret to this day!  I&#039;ve been told that I can no longer apply as I failed to have three successful interviews... Is this true?  Or can I return to the lodge explain myself and hopefully become a contributing member?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Frank</p><p>I started to join the Mason&#8217;s before I was talked out if by friends&#8230; It is something I regret to this day!  I&#8217;ve been told that I can no longer apply as I failed to have three successful interviews&#8230; Is this true?  Or can I return to the lodge explain myself and hopefully become a contributing member?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Frank</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14686</link> <dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:32:07 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14686</guid> <description>I second Jonathon&#039;s suggestion to check out your Masonic Lodge, Knights of Columbus or the Lions Club.I&#039;ve been a member of the Masonic fraternity for 12 years -- I come from a long line of Masons so that seemed to be the organization to seek out and join.   I&#039;ve made some wonderful friendships, and have had an opportunity to use the leadership skills I&#039;ve picked up throughout my life to run some great projects.  (Working for a small company, I don&#039;t have as much opportunity in the work place to do that).We have our charities that we support, and we try to enrich the lives of our members&#039; families as well, by providing good and wholesome activities for the family.  Masonry strives to make good men better.But, it need not be the Masonic fraternity that you join -- find a good one, and take a chance on making new friends and contributing to your community!And for what it is worth, we&#039;re beginning to see an influx of younger men (say 21 to 25 years of age).   Perhaps the next generation is a generation of &quot;joiners.&quot;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second Jonathon&#8217;s suggestion to check out your Masonic Lodge, Knights of Columbus or the Lions Club.</p><p>I&#8217;ve been a member of the Masonic fraternity for 12 years &#8212; I come from a long line of Masons so that seemed to be the organization to seek out and join.   I&#8217;ve made some wonderful friendships, and have had an opportunity to use the leadership skills I&#8217;ve picked up throughout my life to run some great projects.  (Working for a small company, I don&#8217;t have as much opportunity in the work place to do that).</p><p>We have our charities that we support, and we try to enrich the lives of our members&#8217; families as well, by providing good and wholesome activities for the family.  Masonry strives to make good men better.</p><p>But, it need not be the Masonic fraternity that you join &#8212; find a good one, and take a chance on making new friends and contributing to your community!</p><p>And for what it is worth, we&#8217;re beginning to see an influx of younger men (say 21 to 25 years of age).   Perhaps the next generation is a generation of &#8220;joiners.&#8221;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Cardo</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14684</link> <dc:creator>Cardo</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:18:55 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14684</guid> <description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-14638&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Jonathon Howard&lt;/a&gt; -Check out your local Masonic Lodge or Knights of Columbus.  Lions club even.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a
href='#comment-14638' rel="nofollow">@Jonathon Howard</a> &#8211;</p><p>Check out your local Masonic Lodge or Knights of Columbus.  Lions club even.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: hoosierdad</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14678</link> <dc:creator>hoosierdad</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:34:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14678</guid> <description>I have always thought that society today (menfolk in general) is too busy with families and work to dedicate the time.   Things like the Moose Lodge, the VFW, etc have fallen away and have been replaced with hanging out with the family at soccer pitch then stopping by What-A-Burger for dinner then going home to bed.    It is hard to dedicate time to outside organizations when you are so tasked at home.I work at a college and I get my &quot;organzation man&quot; fix here at work.     I have an immense network of contacts and friends.   I am a member in two different professional and two community and service related organizations, but I cannot commit any time or energy to be active on their boards.   For me, this is enough.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have always thought that society today (menfolk in general) is too busy with families and work to dedicate the time.   Things like the Moose Lodge, the VFW, etc have fallen away and have been replaced with hanging out with the family at soccer pitch then stopping by What-A-Burger for dinner then going home to bed.    It is hard to dedicate time to outside organizations when you are so tasked at home.</p><p>I work at a college and I get my &#8220;organzation man&#8221; fix here at work.     I have an immense network of contacts and friends.   I am a member in two different professional and two community and service related organizations, but I cannot commit any time or energy to be active on their boards.   For me, this is enough.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Abby</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14675</link> <dc:creator>Abby</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:31:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14675</guid> <description>What, no one&#039;s even brought up &quot;Bowling Alone&quot; yet? Well, here I go:http://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-14666&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@John Michael Cannon&lt;/a&gt; - &lt;a href=&#039;#comment-14666&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@John Michael Cannon&lt;/a&gt; - While it is important to note that many men cite being &quot;feminized&quot; as a reason for leaving the Church, perhaps this is more a problem of how we define masculinity as a whole in society, both inside and outside of the church? If we look to Christ as an example for how reach the heights of human potential it&#039;s easy to find many characteristics that are incongruous with those things that are often held up as Masculine ideals: Patience and a strong will instead of brute force, an acknowledgment of the interconnectedness of all living things instead of isolating self-sufficiency, communal celebration of God&#039;s gifts instead of rejoicing in a &quot;winner/loser&quot; scenario, etc. Concluding that Churches &quot;wussify&quot; men basically forces the Church to adhere to a secular (and damaging!) standard of masculinity instead of forming a vision of masculinity based in Christ. This isn&#039;t an attempt to turn men into women or vice versa, simply an indication that there are some serious problems with how we box in Masculine and Feminine expression. If Churches are paying attention and adhering to the New Testament, they&#039;re bound to ruffle many feathers in a world that&#039;s still determined to pin Human gender traits on sex alone. If valuing community for the survival of all (instead of the survival of a select few) is a &quot;feminized&quot; trait, then I sure am glad I was born female!</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What, no one&#8217;s even brought up &#8220;Bowling Alone&#8221; yet? Well, here I go:</p><p><a
href="http://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046</a></p><p><a
href='#comment-14666' rel="nofollow">@John Michael Cannon</a> &#8211; <a
href='#comment-14666' rel="nofollow">@John Michael Cannon</a> &#8211; While it is important to note that many men cite being &#8220;feminized&#8221; as a reason for leaving the Church, perhaps this is more a problem of how we define masculinity as a whole in society, both inside and outside of the church? If we look to Christ as an example for how reach the heights of human potential it&#8217;s easy to find many characteristics that are incongruous with those things that are often held up as Masculine ideals: Patience and a strong will instead of brute force, an acknowledgment of the interconnectedness of all living things instead of isolating self-sufficiency, communal celebration of God&#8217;s gifts instead of rejoicing in a &#8220;winner/loser&#8221; scenario, etc. Concluding that Churches &#8220;wussify&#8221; men basically forces the Church to adhere to a secular (and damaging!) standard of masculinity instead of forming a vision of masculinity based in Christ. This isn&#8217;t an attempt to turn men into women or vice versa, simply an indication that there are some serious problems with how we box in Masculine and Feminine expression. If Churches are paying attention and adhering to the New Testament, they&#8217;re bound to ruffle many feathers in a world that&#8217;s still determined to pin Human gender traits on sex alone. If valuing community for the survival of all (instead of the survival of a select few) is a &#8220;feminized&#8221; trait, then I sure am glad I was born female!</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Matthew</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14669</link> <dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:00:40 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14669</guid> <description>Excellent post.  This is why I am a new subscriber.My father still is a member of the Fraternal Order of Moose, and he has a golden statue of the &quot;Moose of the Year&quot; from some time ago.  In this age of people changing employers every few years, of transient moves from community to community and church to church, participation in an organization allows a man to grow and provide leadership to his community, and to his family and friends.It seems all too often that the modern nuclear family hides in its den, constantly entertained by television and computer, while the intrapersonal relationships that everyone ranks as so important are ignored.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post.  This is why I am a new subscriber.</p><p>My father still is a member of the Fraternal Order of Moose, and he has a golden statue of the &#8220;Moose of the Year&#8221; from some time ago.  In this age of people changing employers every few years, of transient moves from community to community and church to church, participation in an organization allows a man to grow and provide leadership to his community, and to his family and friends.</p><p>It seems all too often that the modern nuclear family hides in its den, constantly entertained by television and computer, while the intrapersonal relationships that everyone ranks as so important are ignored.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: John Michael Cannon</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14666</link> <dc:creator>John Michael Cannon</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:42:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14666</guid> <description>&quot;Organizations need good men. Many men stay away from joining organizations because they are disillusioned with them. They stand on the outside and criticize perceived corruption or hypocrisy. Yet this turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. When good men drop out of these organizations or refuse to join them, the criticism only becomes truer. If every virtuous man drops out of politics because he believes that it&#039;s corrupt, politics will only become more debase. If organizations have any chance of changing, good men have to stay and work for change from within. Change will be slow, but when men stay on, join in, and work for change, it will happen.&quot;In the Christian community, it has been noted how men avoid going to church because it tries to feminize them.  The book, Wild at Heart, address the problem of the Christian &quot;nice guy&quot;.  If churches wussify men... then it is a recipe for disaster for men to abandon churches.  That&#039;s when they are needed the most... though not to just sit and do nothing... but to fight against the wussification of men.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Organizations need good men. Many men stay away from joining organizations because they are disillusioned with them. They stand on the outside and criticize perceived corruption or hypocrisy. Yet this turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. When good men drop out of these organizations or refuse to join them, the criticism only becomes truer. If every virtuous man drops out of politics because he believes that it&#8217;s corrupt, politics will only become more debase. If organizations have any chance of changing, good men have to stay and work for change from within. Change will be slow, but when men stay on, join in, and work for change, it will happen.&#8221;</p><p>In the Christian community, it has been noted how men avoid going to church because it tries to feminize them.  The book, Wild at Heart, address the problem of the Christian &#8220;nice guy&#8221;.  If churches wussify men&#8230; then it is a recipe for disaster for men to abandon churches.  That&#8217;s when they are needed the most&#8230; though not to just sit and do nothing&#8230; but to fight against the wussification of men.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Eric</title><link>http://artofmanliness.com/2008/10/12/revisiting-the-organization-man/#comment-14663</link> <dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:10:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://artofmanliness.com/?p=940#comment-14663</guid> <description>That&#039;s a valid point. Organization is one way to the goal, I think I had a problem with it being presented as the only way to make spirituality work. Maybe I read too much into that.I definitely do most of the things on the list above: meditation, time with nature, study, music, and service. I don&#039;t spend time in prayer but meditation is a similar avenue for me.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a valid point. Organization is one way to the goal, I think I had a problem with it being presented as the only way to make spirituality work. Maybe I read too much into that.</p><p>I definitely do most of the things on the list above: meditation, time with nature, study, music, and service. I don&#8217;t spend time in prayer but meditation is a similar avenue for me.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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