Is Patriotism Manly?
July 2, 2008
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Last week we started a feature where every Thursday we will simply pose the question “Is it manly?” Here is this week’s question:
Is patriotism manly? Vote. Discuss.
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Is patriotism manly?
Note to readers: I know there is a stray “n” above the survey question. Something is funky with the code of the plug-in and I can’t remove it.
I have to say no. It all depends if the nation you are being patriotic about is manly. Declaration of Independence = manly. Drafting the Constitution = manly. A 5-4 vote about getting the right to bear arms = not manly (9-0 is manly). At some points in time it is more manly to be part of a revolution, which may or may not be patriotic.
No, patriotism is not manly, it is stupid. Blindly supporting your country no matter what is just plain dumb. The real manly thing to do is to have the integrity to admit it when your country is wrong and support the other side.
I would say that Patriotism is manly, the “positive and supportive attitudes to a ‘fatherland’” is something all men can strive to do. However when a man’s patriotism overrides his duty to being fair and impartial in his way of life, then it becomes unmanly.
“A great British writer once said that if he had to choose between betraying his country and betraying a friend he hoped he would have the decency to betray his country.” - Chad C. Mulligan
Patriotism is manly, Jingoism isn’t!
Ditto on the not manly vote. Personal integrity and independent thought get us much further ahead than blind patri-autism.
Patriotism is neither manly nor unmanly. How it is practiced is what makes it one or the other.
Blind patriotism, to the exclusion of common sense and doing what is right, is not manly.
Being proud of the good things about your country, and not being afraid to say so, is.
And incidentally, admitting when your country is wrong and standing up for those who are right is patriotic, in my opinion.
As others have said, patriotism in and of itself is not manly. It takes active understanding of ones country and the fierce desire to make it ever better to make patriotism manly. Many people who appear unpatriotic on the surface because they demand this or that be fixed about the country, complaining about it’s imperfections, are in fact the more patriotic ones when compared to their brethren that dare not critique the country but praise it blindly from personal pride, which again isn’t manly.
Much like being a manly man who is humble, one should have humble humility for ones country. As one does ones best to be the best man possible, one should strive to better ones country, accepting the good and the bad. Much like with one self, one should focus primarily on fixing the bad, while humbly being thankful for the good, without allowing it all to get to ones head.
I hope that makes sense
I say no, but not for lack of patriotism. Patriotism has nothing to do with manliness. Dying for your country; manly. Yellow ribbon on the back of your car; not necessarily manly. Dissent; manly. Draft-dodging; not necessarily manly.
Great topic. Completely agree on the blind patriotism comments. However, to be fair, not everyone can be leaders and the best leaders have the ability to be led. Oftentimes, people view being led as blind patriotism. We have to be really careful with this.
I think sometimes people get patriotism and duty confused. Duty is almost always manly when it comes to doing it for your country (with some exceptions and of course people have abused “for the country” way too much in the past). You might not totally disagree with the bigger picture, but that doesn’t mean you can ignore your duty. Some may see this as blind patriotism, but it is not.
Great comments and great topic!!!
Coming from Australia (which, in my opinion, is one of the least patriotic countries in the world) i definitely think patriotism is manly. I do agree with the comments on blind patriotism, but well moderated and justified patriotism can be nothing but manly.
Sometimes, when people say, “Dissent is patriotic!” it rarely means more than “I have a convenient excuse to speak insensitively and without constructive solutions.” In some cases, dissenting and criticizing one’s country or family member is the right thing to do…if constructive. But I wish more people taking a stand on a political issue they dislike would ask themselves if they would adopt the same attitude and language towards their parents if a family dispute arose.
Sadly, too often the answer is no. We reserve our fiercest language for our country and leaders because we feel that it surely won’t harm a nation so firmly rooted in notions of free speech. But just because you CAN doesn’t mean you SHOULD. We don’t disrespect our freedoms by exercising a little discretion everyone once in a while. We will be treating our opponents with the respect we wish from them, and with that, common ground becomes much closer.
I work for the government in a quasi-military establishment. It is very manly to support your country with a sense of duty (civil service or military). It is manly to be prepared to sacrifice your personal well being to support something that you love and care for, whether that be your country, your family, your friends, or your ideals. Therefor, I have voted that patriotism is manly.
However, I would like to make a note thatit is not manly to do the following things because of ‘patriotism’ (I live in America so this list will reflect that):
- be a jerk to someone from another country
- disrespect someone that does not share your heritage
- brag about your country when the time does not call for it
- refuse to shape your country by not voting
- take part in rampant commercialism
- - big trucks
- - giant flags
- - ’support the troops’ stickers (you are not giving money to the troops)
- turn a blind eye to the crimes of your nation
Essentially, yes, patriotism is manly. Being unmanly and saying that you are patriotic is neither patriotic or manly.
Putting your country before your loved ones is not manly.
I gotta say, as a whole, I find the comments sections on AoM to contain mostly civil and purposeful discussion. Pretty refreshing on the Internet. Hats off to all you gentleman and the occasional lady.
Open, civil discourse about what it means to be patriotic and how to strike a balance between patriotism and personal responsibility? Now that is manly.
i think it’s interesting that the results seem to be split 60/40, the same way the male vote breaks down republican/democrat in national elections. related in some way maybe?
personally, i think blind patriotism is dangerous, however, i also believe in giving your country the benefit of the doubt on serious matters, and being proud of the home team whenever you can.
I’ll tell you what’s not manly: Boasting your opinion in statements without arguments as we can see below.
As for patriotism, a lot can be said and after reading some of the more decent comments below, I would have to conclude certain values and moral principles are very manly, though using your brain makes the difference most of the time.
Example: Sacrifice is manly only if its outcome really is for the good of the whole. I remember the metaphore of the Indian warriors who swore to fight to the death against the Colonialists, until one of them said: “We’re all prepared to fight to the death, but what will happen to the women and children if we’re all gone?”
Example: Pride is manly only if it isn’t misplaced.
>Patriotism is manly, Jingoism isn’t!
Well said. I was going to say: extreme nationalism.
But if you’re going to take the moral equivalency/can’t-get-no-satisfaction argument to it’s logical extreme, then you should also disavow your favorite sports teams, authors, and bands.
Joe Satriani and Mick Mars are, after all, both guitarists, right?
Being proud of your country and contributing to its success is definitely manly! Here are The Reasons I Think America Is A Great Country
Thanks and have a happy 4th of July!
Wow, I can’t believe how many people are voting “no.” The comments indicate that the major reason for this is because they don’t like “blind patriotism.” Sounds to me like they don’t understand the question.
I was always under the impression that patriotism was a love for your country — not the current regime, policies, or even laws. A patriot works, fights, or even dies to defend or improve his country. So even if you live in an unjust country, being a patriot is very noble. Don’t those of us who are Americans call the founding fathers “patriots?” They fought to throw off the shackles of an oppressive government and establish a new nation based on the ideals they held. Those who call themselves patriots without knowing what they defend are not really patriots. Even if they say they are.
There’s no such thing as “blind patriotism,” so all your complaining about such a hypothetical is moot. (Though I get what you’re trying to say: calls to “support our troops” or “stay the course” in a war you feel is unjust/ignoble is unmanly and cowardly. Fine, then just say it. Beating around the bush is unmanly, too.)
There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism looks at the ideals that a country is founded on and the path that people take to create and sustain the ideals. Nationalism is that “blind patriotism” that some refer to…it’s a “My country, right or wrong” mentality that might make us sheep, but is not manly.
True patriotism is manly, we just have to discern what being patriotic is.
Absolutely manly! Hats off to all patriots and nationalists around the world.
Ditto to Chris’s comment.
Being “patriotic” by definition means blindly following something. Anything blind is hardly manly. Men should be educated, articulate, and well informed. Pretty much the opposite.
The idea that “patriotism” is not the same as “nationalism” is pretty silly. Nationalism by definition is “devotion and loyalty to one’s own nation; patriotism. ” (Random House).
Men should never make blind decisions. They should always use experience, education, and sound unbiased judgment. Those are also the same things needed for a good leader… Coincidence? I think not.
Patriotism is manly, but as noted before, not if it is blind patriotism. The Founding Fathers were patriotic to England, but they weren’t blind, and soon realize that they needed to break away.
Scott
I disagree that patriotism or nationalism = blind loyalty. Wikipedia on nationalism:
“Nationalism is a term referring to a doctrine or political movement that holds a nation, usually defined in terms of ethnicity or culture, has the right to constitute an independent or autonomous political community based on a shared history and common destiny.”
There are many nationalist parties/groups in Europe, all of which tend to go against the grain of what the government is doing at the moment in regards to internal as well as international policies.
As another pointed out above, putting country before loved ones is not manly. Dying for one’s country to *protect* one’s loved ones is.
The quote about betraying one’s country vs. betraying a friend rings an emotional note, but in the light of reason simply falls apart. To truly “betray” a nation, in the sense of Benedict Arnold, resides in an entirely different realm of human existence.
I realize that we are all sodden with the products of Hollywood where the main character is always operating in that “one in a million” instance where the government is out to destroy everything he loves. This isn’t necessarily Hollywood’s fault–how does one craft an interesting story about the average reality? Yet the fact remains, it is just *that* average reality where we all live.
We are so inundated by fiction today, that we’ve lost touch with the non-fiction. Try “Lives of the Signers” on for size ($9.00 on Amazon). It tells what happened to each signer of the Declaration of Independence because of their heroic choice. (Hint: Most were killed as traitors or died penniless.)
Contrast these stories with the average modern fictional tale where the protagonist is purely out to save his own skin.
It is a HUGE difference.
“Blindly following” is not part of the definition of patriotism. When has that ever been inherent to the concept?
Patriotism is a attitude of appreciation, and a sense of duty and loyalty to one’s country. It’s kind of like a marriage or friendship in that your default position is to want the best for someone and you will support and work to help him or her be his or her best. But that doesn’t mean giving him or her (or country) whatever he or she wants. It might mean requiring people to live up to the worthy ideals they claim to follow. Being patriotic means that you don’t dump it or dump on it just because people do something they shouldn’t. You work to help your wife (or whoever) be better because you love her–same with one’s country. Of course there have to be some worthy ideals in place to live up to, and I think America has them–they just need to be dusted off and put into practice on a larger scale.
Saying “I want what’s best for my country” is not the same as saying “My country is always right.” The former is patriotism in its proper sense (the history of the term and concept will bear this out, I believe), and takes an honest approach to the flaws and the strengths of the country. The latter is a perversion of true patriotism–a blind approach which is not manly because it is all about going with the flow rather than standing strong for worthy ideals. You can support your country and have a positive attitude even while correcting it. Having a “you suck” attitude and supporting “the other side” is an approach that smacks of rejection, not restoration, and it is just as un-manly as the blind variety of patriotism.
BTW, how did the idea of “blindness” get appended to patriotism? Devotion or loyalty to a friend would end when the friend, for instance, steals. No one would reasonably say otherwise. It is an obvious caveat.
Constraining “patriotism” in the same way is nothing more than a canard to place situational evaluation in the forefront. It’s like saying “murder is really bad unless he really needed killing.”
Murder is not self-defense or manslaughter. It is murder. Patriotism is not jingoism or lackeyism (if that’s even a word). It is patriotism.
As others have said here . . .
Patriotism, yes.
Jingoism, no.
Patriotism to the country-always. Patriotism to the goverment-only when it deserves it.
Patriotism is a manly (and womanly) virtue and loving the land of your birth despite its defects is a noble act. Those who say that patriots “blindly” follow what the country says don’t know what true patriotism is.
Patriotism is not just about following your country; it’s about national pride; it’s about leadership; it’s about trying to change what’s wrong with your country for the better. In short, it’s about loving your country in spite of its warts.
Previous generations displayed their patriotism by fighting a revolution for our liberties, by fighting another war ending slavery, by marching against segregation, and providing women the right to vote. These patriots saw the defects in the country and worked, suffered and in some cases DIED to improve it.
True patriotism is caring enough for the land of your birth that you are willing to that risk and say, “I love my country, and I’ll do what’s needed to make a difference.”
The problem is that most people don’t give a damn because they don’t know how good they have it here in the US. Head to Zimbabwe, Cuba, Venezuela, or Saudi Arabia and see how easy we have it compared to those poor souls.
Happy 4th of July everyone! Stay safe and remember all those who lived, fought, and died to give us our freedom while enjoying whatever festivities you have planned.
Patriotism is manly. Jingoism is not.
No, it is manly to be patriotic of the human race! What the hell are borders anyway and what makes one border better than another. Am I unpatriotic if I sing “Oh Canada” at a hockey game as well as the “National Anthem”? We are all just people. We all follow a basic moral code. There are some crazies out there but for the most part we all want to be good. SO go out an be good to your neighbor!
I just kind of shake my head when I see people bad talk patriotism as “blindness” or whatever; it’s simply very trendy and fashionable these days to be a “new world order” enthusiast, where “no borders!” is the cry. Generally just college kids who learned all they need to know from watching MTV.
@ Dave- Agreed.
Yes, patriotism is manly. It’s not blind. It’s supporting something you believe in, instead of conforming to what others want. If you don’t like it, change it. It’s possible to be a revolutionary patriot by changing what you don’t like about your country. Someone who’s not patriotic wouldn’t care about the country and wouldn’t bother to do anything about it.
Brian, RP, — I agree. When I read the first few comments, my thought was, “that’s not patriotism, it’s nationalism.” Being that there is a distinction (and that distinction is very clear to me.)
Having said that, patriotism is definitely manly.
Patriotism is a heck of a lot more manly than apathy!!
It is manly to want the best for your country. It is not manly to blindly approve of everything that your country does regardless of whether it is good or bad. A true patriot is one who wants the best for his country. Therefore, I think that a true patriot, one who wants the best for his country and acts in accordance with that wish, is manly.
What kind of man *doesn’t* support his country? A self-serving weasel, a coward, a loser that wants to please a political party that is currently in vogue. I see comments that talk about *blind* patriotism. WTF? Nobody said blind patriotism. But if you don’t support your country, you’re a sorry excuse for a man. Weasel, yes. Seeker of excuses, yes. Pleaser of other men, yes. But not much of a man.
Difficult question to answer, as it is posed. Not a yes-no question. To many other factors that enter into it.
To me, patriotism does not mean loving your current administration. Far from it. It means caring about your country. Caring about one’s country can sometimes be opposing the actions your government is currently taking. People that take an active role in their country, whether that just means informing yourself and voting for what you believe is right, donating to a candidate/cause, or protesting are patriotic.
Patriotism is NOT obedience
Patriotism is a love of the country, not necessarily the country’s government. As a soon to be USN sailor, I support my country and work for it’s government. I agree with the general consensus. A patriot wants what’s best for his country and is willing to die to improve it and protect his loved ones and his(or her) ideals. Saying your country’s government is right when they are clearly being unjust, is not patriotism.
Mostly, patriotism is an expression of gratitude for the rights, privileges and freedoms one enjoys from a government that, for all its flaws, is the greatest guarantor of individual rights out there. It is showing respect and honor to a system that almost always does far more for us than we do for it. Patriotism is simply good manners.
God Bless America.
I go with the comments that patriotism is good, jingoism bad. Australians are generally cautious about patriotism (part of trying to look laconic like we think we’re supposed to), but I had a great lesson in positive patriotism tonight. A mate of ours comes from the US, and she and her Aussie husband came over to our place to celebrate July 4th. We decorated the room with little flags, ate fried chicken followed by apple pie, and generally had a good time. Our mate recited the Gettysburg address, followed by the start of the Declaration of Independence, and it was quite moving to see how proud she was of the noble sentiments they expressed. She is a strong critic of a lot of what is going on in the US right now, but that doesn’t affect her pride in the aspirations of the people. That’s how patriotism should be. Happy Independence Day!
I agree with some of the fellow readers. I think patriotism is manly, but nationalism is very wrong. I believe there is a confusion between love of country(patriotism), and blindly following your country right or wrong(nationalism)
I apologize but let me add to the definitions that have already been provided.
Patriot
1. A person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and
its interests with devotion.
2. A person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual
rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
patriot. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1).
Random House, Inc.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriot (accessed:
July 06, 2008).
In these definitions there isn’t anything that would remotely give you the idea that there could be anything blind about patriotism. Let me emphatically state that there is no such thing as “blind patriotism!? If it’s blind, it is anything but patriotic. Now I concede that there might be blind loyalism, but patriotism does not permit blindness.
Consider our founding fathers of United States of America. Who could say they were anything but Patriotic AND MANLY, especially the ones who signed the Declaration of Independence (which we just celebrated incidentally)? We tend to forget that to sign the Declaration of Independence was to commit an act of treason — and the punishment for treason was death.
Our Founding Fathers pledged, “Our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor? to the cause of freedom and liberty. These men were true patriots. Take Thomas Nelson Jr. of Virginia for instance, who raised $2 million for the patriots’ cause on his own personal credit. The government never reimbursed him, and repaying the loans wiped out his entire estate. During the battle of Yorktown, his house, which had been seized by the British, was occupied by General Cornwallis. Nelson quietly urged the gunners to fire on his own home. They did so, destroying it. He was never again a man of wealth. He died bankrupt and was buried in an unmarked grave.
I’ve got to say, “I completely agree with Lewis. Also, I agree with Chris that, “The real manly thing to do is to have the integrity to admit it when your country is wrong.? However, I’m not sure what Chris means by supporting “Other side.? If you mean taking a stand for what is right and doing what you can to change what is wrong, then I would agree – That’s manly. But if you mean by the other side, those who would burn the flag and call our returning vets baby killers, etc., then I would STRONGLY disagree with you.
I can only pray that I can be a patriot that our founding fathers were.
PATRIOTISM IS MANLY!!
It depends on the type of patriotism involved. If you are pushing for war under the guise of “fighting terrorism” or “going after of WMD’s” then that type of patriotism is not manly in any sense. On the other hand if you enlist for genuinely selfless reasons, and only you can tell if this is so, then this is manly.
Jon, agreed. Unconstitutional behaviour is not patriotic nor is it manyly.
LOYALTY is manly. Patriotism is a form of loyalty that can be manly, but itself is not the core of manliness that loyalty is.
Why should it be ‘manly’ to pledge your allegiance to whatever government’s territory you were born under? I prefer to put humanity before governments. I would rather not give my service to any government, especially my service in military matters, because I consider giving up my ability to think and act free of external authorities essential to conducting myself in an ethical manner. Following orders and putting yourself in a position where you’re obligated, under threat, to follow orders, might be manly, but it isn’t wise if you value your own judgment. Far more atrocities have been committed in the name of patriotism, nationalism, order, even ‘manliness’ than have been committed in the name of rebellion.
Patriotism is manly. The Founding Fathers were manly men, and patriots. Yet if they had exhibited “blind patriotism,” they would likely not have begun the revolution at all, being completely loyal to mother England.
Please forgive me for posting on an older thread, and, as I haven’t read all of the comments yet, if this has been brought up before.
Mark Twain said, “Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it.” It seems to me if you substitute patriotism for loyalty in his quote, you have a pretty good way of approaching this.
I think it is very “manly” to support the ideals on which our country was founded and which have developed over our history. However, blindly following demogogues and charlatans who misuse these ideals, be they in government or elsewhere, is not.