Over the past few years, many social observers have noted that young adults are dating less. Instead, dating is being replaced by “hanging out” with members of the opposite sex. Dating and hanging out are two completely different things.
Hanging out consists of people getting together in groups and doing stuff together. It could be going to a club, a restaurant, or just staying home and playing Wii. The atmosphere is relaxed and relations among opposite sexes never rises above the level of friendship. There is nothing wrong with hanging out, but it is not a replacement for dating.
Dating consists of pairing off with someone in a temporary commitment so you can get to know the person better and perhaps start a long term relationship with them.
Why the decline in dating?
There are probably lots of factors that have contributed to the decline of dating amongst young adults. Here are few possible ones:
1. Young adults don’t like to commit. It seems like people in my generation aren’t big on making commitments to people or to organizations. Generation Y is too busy trying to “find themselves” in order to commit to anybody or anything. Companies have complained about the turn over rate of Generation Y. Companies invest lots of money training new employees only to have them leave after two years so they can find a new job. This reluctance to commit has carried over to the interaction between the sexes. Young adults don’t want to be tied down to someone just in case they get an itch to go on a backpacking trip to Europe.
2. The internet has retarded Generation Y’s social skills. Instead of telling a person directly that they’re interested in them by asking them on a date, Generation Y sends Crush alerts on Facebook. While the internet has made connecting with people easier, it has also made us lazier at establishing meaningful relationships. If you’re over 18 and you’re still using Facebook applications to let someone know you’re interested in them, you need to be punched in the face.
3. Feminism. Before I receive the wrath of all the feminists telling me it’s a typical man thing to blame women for the decline in dating, I ask that you hear me out. I think feminism is great. It’s great that women can choose to have a career, be a stay-at-home mom, or do both.
But it does make things confusing for men. Navigating relations among the sexes is a bit more tricky today. Men have all these questions go through their head: Who asks? If I ask, will she think I’m too forward? Who pays for the date? Do we split the bill? All these uncertainties cause men to avoid dating altogether and opt for hanging out with women instead.
4. Men today are wussies. Men today aren’t very resilient. They don’t know how to handle rejection or failure, so they avoid rejection or failure by not asking women out on dates.
Why date?
The whole point of dating is to find someone you can settle down and start a family with. That’s right. I’m encouraging young adult males to get hitched. This flies completely in the face of the popular trend of putting off marriage as long as possible so you can “find yourself” or “develop your passion.” Here’s the deal. Starting a family forces you to man up. A family is a responsibility. Responsibility breeds character. Character makes men. If you’re 30, single, and still feel like an adolescent, it’s probably because you still are. You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood- family. And you may be surprised to find your passion and yourself in marriage. Marriage doesn’t mean an end to your personal progression. It just means you get to take on life with a best friend and lover by your side. Which makes the journey much more fun.
So, getting back to dating. Dating is the first step you take in finding that lovely lady you’re going to spend the rest of your life with. You might be hanging out with her and your friends right now, but if you don’t take her on date, she’ll forever be just your friend.
Resurrect Dating
So, you’re ready to start dating and stop hanging out. It really is not that hard to get a date with a woman. Here are some guidelines to remember as you take hanging out up a level to dating.
1. She wants you to ask. Despite the rhetoric you hear about the liberated woman, women still appreciate it when a guy asks her out on a date. They like when men take the initiative. I’ve heard lots of successful young professional women lament the fact that men don’t ask them out. They’re beautiful, smart, and charming, but don’t have a man. Be a man and ask these women out.
2. Asking is easy. Asking a woman out on a date isn’t rocket science. When you ask, though, do it in person or over the phone. If you’re poking a woman you’re interested in on Facebook, you lose any credibility as a man.
3. Keep dates simple. Dates don’t have to be huge, expensive affairs. Keep it simple. If you want to keep things informal, ask her out for lunch or coffee. If you want a more romantic date, invite her over to your place and make dinner for her. She’ll be impressed that you know how to cook. The whole point of dating is to get some one on one interaction with a person to find out if she is someone you’d like to start a long term relationship with. Simple and frequent dates will assist you in this.
4. Prepare for rejection. Face it. Not every woman you ask out is going to say yes. Prepare for that. It’s no big deal if she says no. Think about it. You’re no worse off getting rejected than you were before you asked. You didn’t have a date with her before, you don’t have a date with her now. Your situation has not changed.
5. Just do it, damn it. So what are you waiting for? Quit reading this post right now and pick up your cell phone. Call a woman and ask her on a date. Stop hanging out and start dating. Stop being scared of commitment. Commitment is liberating, not confining.
I expect a lot of debate on this post. Please keep the conversation civil. It’s possible to disagree and still be a gentleman or a lady about it.
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I think that this advice is great. It makes clear sense to me. Now i am going to Man the hell up and go ask out the people i like. Its the lost oppertunities that really annoy me, but im sure there will be many more to come. I am 16 going on 17 soon and all that i can say is that this page specifically has helped ease my mind more then any other information i have heard or seen.
Yes i see exactly what you mean but i have found it hard to learn anything about being normal because my Male adult role model (my dad) has never taught me anything. If you are a father or a significant Male role model out there reading this PLEASE make sure that you take the time to teach the younger generation the bloody useful information like the above written text. I cant imagine how long i would have pussy-footed around for like a retard if i hadnt read this. Perhaps we invented “hanging out” because our own male role models could not “man up” and teach us a thing or two?(just speculation) So anyway thank you very much for taking the time to write some useful advice up on the web.
Its almost shaming that i had to look on the damn internet to see this…
theres a tonne of replies so its not likely that many people will see my above statement =P
Hey Sum1, I’m glad this site helps you. I wish I had something like this when I was a teenager. As for your Dad, maybe try talking to him about what you said here (about him not telling teaching you anything). He might have a lot to tell you but might find it hard to connect with you. Heck, and that never gets easier. I’m in my 30s and my father and I still have trouble talking. Kids do not come with instructions and although it may sometimes look like parents don’t care, it may be that they just are unsure as to what to do.
another problem that i have had and would appreciate advise on is that i generally seem to settle for the “less attractive” chick…
I guess i have a few reasons for this and they seem to include…
i find that normal chicks are generally not up themselves, but recently whilst thinking on my reasoning it seemed harsh and i coudnt help but admit queitly to myself that perhaps the real reason is that im just too damn scared to even think about trying to enter a relationship with a really HOT girl or even (i guess) that perhaps i dont DESERVE one.
perhaps this is why i have the tendancy to go for the less hot of two chicks. i know this sounds really mean and to any women reading this passage i am truly sorry if i have caused you any offence for the hot chicks been kinda up themselves comment.
(seen as i am using the name sum1 i feel no shame in sharing my feelings with a wider range of people as im sure that there are many guys out there that have experienced the exact same problems as i have)
How do i combat this and what is the real reason behind my inconvenient habit?
honest truth being i havent seen my dad in a year and a bit cause i got kicked out…(long story and theres a lot more to it then you might think) he cant talk to me cause mom forbids him to (i guess he aint very manly). so i cant really try to reconcile with him and seek out his advice on women. I do remember him saying once though when i was about 12 that to get confidence around women he would get drunk and then he could do whatever he wanted.
I dont really want to take this approach.
I actually agree with the majority of the post, BUT the thrust of it “not enough dating!” is rather a strawman.
It’s all very well bemoaning the decline in dating, but the the important first step to securing a date is to impress the girl sufficiently for her to consent – and THIS is the area of the problem; after all, if you have a girl draped over you laughing at each and every pathetic joke you tell then its pretty darn easy to say; “Wanna hook up on Tuesday?”.
Unfortunately, impressing women is a rather complex, hit and miss affair if you are not a natural alpha male; hence the predominant sense of frustration and confusion.
See the wealth of “pick-up” material out there for more on how to achieve the not-alpha-but-want-to-score-reliably.
Rebuttals welcome.
Hey Sasser. I have a rebuttal but I don’t want to read too much into your post and take away a message that you never intended but here it goes.
First I think if your (not you personally, but any guy) goal is get her in bed in as short as a time possible then the battle is already lost. Physical stuff is important (women want a guy to want them too) but if it’s your only goal then unless she’s desperate, drunk, or diseased then you are wasting your time.
So I guess what I’m saying is that you don’t need to be the funniest guy in the room and have a pocketful of pick-up lines. That’s crap. Its works in the movies and it works in the stories told in the locker room but in reality its shallow and most women (especially the ones you really want) see right through it. Just be yourself and instead of thinking of your next come-on line, listen to what she has to say. Sincere guys who listen are hot in girl’s books.
Now about this alpha-male stuff. No one is a born alpha or whatever. To blame your lack of luck with ladies by saying you are not a “natural alpha” while attributing another guy’s success to being one is a cop out. Girls don’t have some sort of radar for the born alpha male. They do though have radar for guys who have traits they want. Confidence, sincerity, intelligence, strength. And any guy can obtain these. Sincerity = be honest (with yourself too), intelligence = read more, strength = exercise more, and confidence = ok, hardest one to grow but working on the others will help here.
Now in conclusion I just want to comment on your closing statements “…impressing women is a rather complex, hit and miss affair if you are not a natural alpha male; hence the predominant sense of frustration and confusion…” and “…wealth of “pick-up†material out there for more on how to achieve the not-alpha-but-want-to-score-reliably.”
I think these two statements say a lot. I believe that the frustration and confusion is from obtaining advice from the “wealth of pick-up materialâ€. Any woman will tell you that 99.9% of “pick-up material” is crap.If you really want to get closer to women then work on yourself. Read the articles on this site relating to virtues and try to incorporate them into your life. Work out. Eat better. Read more. Improve yourself and you won’t feel the need to trick women into “hooking up”, you’ll just attract them. And who knows, maybe by getting in touch with yourself more and not comparing yourself to the so-called alphas bragging about their exploits in the internet (which is mostly fiction), you might find that you want more from a girl than a quick hook-up.
well said Chris
Well I was looking for a boost of confidence on asking a woman I know for coffee and this did it. Looks like I’ve got a coffee date. Thanks Internet!
Hey Chris,
Thanks for your comment. Yes you’re reading into my comment, but I find it interesting so I don’t mind.
“First I think if your (not you personally, but any guy) goal is get her in bed in as short as a time possible then the battle is already lost. …if it’s your only goal then unless she’s desperate, drunk, or diseased then you are wasting your time.”
Well, it’s difficult to agree or disagree strongly with this assertion without making large assumptions on the context of your remark. Suffice to say, sleeping with a girl *should* be your no.1 aim early on because it’ll make your life a hell of a lot easier from then on.
But obviously there are levers you need to pull in order to get through the gate, and there are right and wrong ways to pull them, so-to-speak.
“So I guess what I’m saying is that you don’t need to be the funniest guy in the room and have a pocketful of pick-up lines. That’s crap…”
I disagree with your dismissal of being funny or having good “lines”. Yes it’s superficial, but that’s all you have at the outset when meeting someone.
If I use “technology” (i.e. canned routines/lines and so on) I am still exactly the same guy as I would be if I didn’t use technology. It’s just that technology gets me to where I need to be faster and more reliably. If I need to get from A to B – and I can use a bicycle with a puncture and no brakes, or I could use a Porche – I know which one I’m going to choose.
“It works in the movies…”
In my experience movies are the opposite; guy-gets-girl based on his sincere traits rather than applying any kind of intelligence to the process.
I agree with your point re girls scanning for traits and liking sincerity. But you need to look at the broader picture and say “how can I get an opportunity to demonstrate these traits?”. High value girls have 20 guys approaching them every time they go out. Is the guy who says “Hi, I’m a really sincere guy. What’s your name?” going to be more successful, on average, than the guy who opens with a funny remark and an indirect demonstration of value? These girls simply don’t have time to apply a flawless rational sorting algorithm to every guy that comes their way.
“Girls don’t have some sort of radar for the born alpha male.”
OK, I confess I dont know whether its nurture or nature or both (I suspect both), but there are alpha males. And, yes girls do have a radar for it. But I agree that you can improve your alphaness by self improvement, like you say.
I really like your idealistic viewpoint that if you are a good, well-rounded person then you’ll get the girl. Maybe I’m just cynical, but I don’t buy it. I suppose its because for some reason humans place a huge emphasis on presentation; and that’s what most pick up stuff seems to be about – presenting yourself in the best possible way. I agree that much of the pick up stuff is probably of dubious value, but some of it is based on empirical evidence that it’s difficult to argue with.
i hate to say it, but i do agree with the part of the article that says ‘men are wussies’ (not all men obviously). what i mean by this is, some men are so afraid of rejection that they do the opposite of showing their interest, instead they give off confusing signals that make us women think they are playing games and simply aren’t interested at all. i think men tend to do this on accident, so it’s best to keep this in mind.
i have been in situations where i’ve had to take the initiative, and only then did i learn the guy was interested all along. men tend to do this in the beginning of dating a lot as well to “feel out” the situation, in some cases i think it’s because they are still afraid of rejection on some level, but women feel the same way! just because we are more emotional doesn’t mean we have the guts to approach you or spill our feelings. most women are afraid we’ll scare guys off if we tell them how we truly feel, and some of us tend to hide these things well.
so a word of advice to all men, don’t be afraid to initiate something. we are equally afraid and equally confused. you won’t know until you try and even if you are rejected, it’s not the end of the world.. if anything you will get practice in the meantime and sooner or later it’ll work out.
I agree that “hanging out” is quickly replacing actual “dating”, but I think both are necessary for a good relationship and for reputation. I prefer to use the word “talking to so-and-so” instead of “hanging out with so-and-so”; it seems that today the Y generation usually will be “talking” to a potential girlfriend or boyfriend for a time and then either proceed to “dating” or just stay friends. I think this is very useful in getting to know a girl before you commit to a relationship with her. You don’t want to go ahead and “date” and girl before you really know her just like you don’t want to buy a car before you learn about it. “Talking” usually consists of anywhere from a couple weeks (way too short in my opinion) to 3 or 4 months, and sometimes even longer. You do go out on dates during those months, but you’re still technically just “talking” because you haven’t learned enough about them to decide if you want to start a relationship. If you didn’t know anything about a potential girlfriend or boyfriend, rushed into a relationship, and then you realize that you should never have dated the person, it can horribly ruin your reputation. Keep in mind that when I say “reputation” I don’t mean dating the extra-fine cheerleader so you can be even more popular; I mean your reputation as to how other people perceive you and see what kind of person you are. If you date girls that are known to sleep around or do other frowned upon activities it will reflect on your personality and people may think you are the same way.
Mike, as a Gen X myself, I can tell you that dating was pretty much the same. Talk and hang, talk and hang. And it doesn’t work. Not much has changed believe it or not between myself (30-something), yourself, or even the guys a bit older than me. What has changed is that as we get older we learn from our mistakes.
In my opinion, just talking for months is a horrible waste of time. You can talk and find that a girl is compatiable as a friend over 3 months but then find that you two have no chemistry over 3 dates. Dating cuts to the chase. It decides quickly if you and this girl are going to have a relationship or not. It is not the relationship. Also, dating is fun. You’re nervous. A bit excited by the unknown. Why not enjoy that?
I think what the issue may be for you and many others is the blurring of the line between dating and going out/relationship. Meeting a girl and asking her out to a movie is not a relationship. Just be up front. Go slow but don’t pussyfoot around with the “hanging with friends” nonsense. Ask her on a date. If it goes good, ask her on another. If it doesn’t, move on. Just be honest. Whether its date one or date twenty. If you discover she isn’t the one for you. Tell her and move on. She may be a upset. She may even hate for a little while. But if you are honest with her, she’ll get over it. If not then she probably wasn’t mature enough for you anyways. Heck, if she knows why you dumped her it may help her. Either she’ll work on that issue so the next guy won’t dump her or she’ll realize that its a part of who she is and if you didn’t want that then you were the not the guy for her (and she can therefore dump you after the fact).
As for the reputation thing. Be careful with that. A real man doesn’t listen to gossip and that crap. If you are interested in a girl then ask her out on a date. You will find out quick enough if she’s reputable. How would you like it if a rumour was going around about you and it kept girls from dating you so that it wouldn’t ruin their reputation. I know a girl who had the biggest rep as an easy girl in high school and as it turns out she was actually one of the most innocent. Her problem was that she got along with the boys better than the girls (as friends) and the other girls spread rumours about her.
Chivalry, Courtship, DATING is dead. Internet, media, society. You name it. The ‘old school’ is pretty much on the outside looking in.
Girls are so wrapped up in BS these days from the lack of MEN, that when they encounter CHIVALRY, their heads explode because they don’t know what to do with it. If the two parties don’t want to sleep with each other immediately, then there is apparently no chance of any real relationship coming from it. Thus elminating the potential for DATING or possible COURTSHIP. WTF?
Of course it doesn’t help when women waste their time with all the LOSERS. So it cuts both ways ladies.
If you’re interested in a guy. Do him a favor and meet him halfway. Not all of us are capable of reading your signals and getting all the hints. And start dating MEN and not boys! When you complain, or guys if you hear a girl complain, about why they can’t find a good “man”, tell them: “That’s what happens when you date BOYS”.
No way in hell I change ME. I’m in no rush and can handle being single. I’ve done it all, been around the world, had many ladies, so I’m in no hurry. I was taught from the old school by my father (R.I.P) and other MEN in my family (as well as the WOMEN out there) how it’s done. “Hanging out” and “talking” are cop-outs. If you think otherwise, you’re a moron. However, to each his own.
Dating is what it is. It was never meant to be easy. If it was, none of us would ever be single. The “date” is the time you take to get to know a lady. Lunch, Dinner, Coffee, whatever. A “date” is a damn date. It’s just that. “Dating” is the act of actually getting the hell out there and meeting various men or women and going from there. It’s not “Instant Relationship in a Box”.
That’s the problem today. Hanging out in groups in order to find someone? Are you kidding? I don’t need the drama and I’m not looking for “St. Elmo’s Fire”. Give me a break! Guys wanna increase the number of the girls you know? NETWORK! This is done by MEETING and ASKING the girl out.
Just because the girl shoots you down or ‘just wants to be friends’ isn’t completely a bad thing. If she’s a good girl, you can bet she’ll probably hook you up with one of her friends. Or you have a wingman for when you hit the club or bar scene. It opens up so many doors, you can’t even imagine. OR you can line yourself up with another potential ‘friend with benefits’. Will you two hook up, get together, marry? Who knows? However, you won’t know if you spend your time with the SAME DAMN people in a group or investing time and energy in “hanging out”. Besides, if she is a total b*tch to you when you ask her on a date, how do you think she will be in a relationship?
I can “date” and “f**k*” just the same without any commitments or strings. So your “hang out” theories are of no use to me. For that matter, the majority of the time these “groups” are comprised of like 276375636523 guys and 4 girls. (Don’t try it, I’ve seen it. A LOT.)
You all have fun with “pass the friend”. I’ll just be the sapless ‘old school’ loser getting ready for his ‘lunch date’ with a girl I just met not too long ago. Hmmm, imagine that. I want to get to know her and I DIDN’T have to HANG OUT or sit in a GROUP of people for that to happen? *lol* Does that mean we get together? Nope. I don’t even know if I will even want her as a friend, much less a girlfriend. We may end up a couple, we may hook up, we may not. However, that’s why we’re getting together on a informal “DATE”. Heck, she may not find me as interesting as she may think I am. Goes both ways. *lol* As a bonus, she plays college sports and she’s hot. That means she might have hot friends who play sports as well. *lol*
Does the group thing work? Maybe. I’ve been invited by my buddies new girlfriend to lunch and she informed me a bunch of cute girls will be there. I don’t know any of them. That works for me. Bunch of opportunities there. However, I wonder if I have the same spending time with the same tight knit group of people and possibly developing that ’small town’ mentality. Well, I guess you could be ‘Fez’ to your groups ‘Jackie’. That’s if you like being the second, or THIRD choice. *lol*
How dare I go out, MEET, and be blessed with many female friends (some who have rejected me in the beginning or I have had relations with) who have introduced me to other great women! For that matter, why would I want to spend time learning what kind of girl I want to make my ‘lady’. All the physical relations, the dates, relationships? That’s just dumb!!! I guess I should be miffed that I had the intestinal fortitude to ask her out. NO! I just wanna “hang out” and/or do it in groups no less and sit around and wait for the SAME few girls to like me or become available.
Women, as femisist as they may be, do want/like to be held and treated as such. I’m known to give many of the girlies in my life big bear hugs and lift them up. I’ve had them tell me or I overhear them say to their friends, “it reminds me that I’m a girl” with a smile on their face. Plus, being a man establishes SECURITY and SAFETY with the girl you want to get closer with. You have to make them feel comfortable around you. You CAN do that on a “DATE” with just the two of you. If not, I suggest you get a lawyer. *lol*
However, fellas. It’s this simple: Stop being a b*tch and ask the girl out. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
Thanks for an awesome article…You have clearly presented many things that I have been thinking about for a long time. I am a senior in college, and here are a few points from an average girl’s perspective:
- It’s all very well to say girls should do some of the work, ask a guy out, well…that doesn’t work. At least it hasn’t worked for me, and it’s not because I’m timid, or not willing to do it. In my experience (and that of my friends), as soon as a girl acts too interested in a guy (even if she doesn’t go so far as to ask him out), the guy loses any interest he may have had. This has cured me of showing much interest. On the other hand, I have known many women to say, “I wasn’t really interested at first, but he asked me out and he’s awesome and now we’re together!”
- On that note, I want to date a man who can take initiative, not a wuss that’s too timid to ask me out. If a guy likes me enough to want to go on a date with me, he should have the guts to ask me out. I do have the guts to ask him out, but I shouldn’t have to. I want to be swept off my feet, not pushing a non-starter.
- And I’m sorry if that seems to imply a difference between male and female roles in a relationship, but that’s because there IS a difference. Do you want to say, “Yeah, my wife asked me out first…and bought my meals…and proposed…” NO! But women want to say that about their husbands! Even if they’re feminists.
- There’s no reason why you can’t “hang out” AND date. You may date girls in your “group,” you may look outside of the group. I have known good couples to come out of both. But no satisfying relationship happens if you don’t go on a date.
- If you’ve been friends with a girl for three months and don’t know if you’re interested, you’re not. So get out of your box and meet some more women.
Those are my two cents, for what it’s worth; sorry for the length. Keep up the good work!
over past several years ive greatly increased my confidence. But still not close to where i should be. If i know a girl, say from a class, i can make an easy connection and it becomes easy for me to talk/flirt with her.
Now here is the problem: if i see a girl at a coffee shop or some random place, i never have the balls to just talk. im good at STARTING the convo but carrying it on is the hard part.
any tips?
I’m sorry, but I very much disagree with the whole mindset behind this article. Perhaps your advice can lead towards more lasting relationships, but your whole basis on why this is necessary is fundamentally superficial and outdated.
First off, you stated that a major problem with today’s generation is that people are too afraid to commit and that generation Y is too busy trying to “find themselves”, as this is a truly bad thing. In the past, more committal generations followed strict social guidelines of “highschool, college, job, marriage” that truly restricted our fundamental freedom as a people. Today’s men aren’t committing as much to high-school sweethearts and the first job they find out of college because they are more concerned with their own lives and happiness rather than what is expected of them. An unfortunate side effect is that today, people are more introspective and, therefore, self-doubting and cautious. You assume this is a bad thing, but I argue that baseless confidence is for the foolish. Often when people are confident today it is because their actions are more determined by societal standards rather than personal choice. Unfortunately, people generally aren’t that smart so it is much easier to be guided by society than to be autonomous. Once we, as a people, can realize our own weaknesses and overcome them not by enforcing strict standards of what it means to be a “man” or a “woman”, but by rational, independent thought unclouded by disillusions of expected behavior.
I found your comically twisted and baseless rhetoric to be most representative of your shallow life-philosophy that promotes a superficial view of success and dismisses free thought; “Starting a family forces you to man up. A family is a responsibility. Responsibility breeds character. Character makes men.” Starting a family forces people to change every aspect of their life to facilitate a healthy and productive relationship with their spouse and to create a nurturing and beneficial environment for their children to grow up in. Starting a family should not be what creates a man, but a man should start a family. Nearly half of all marriages in America end in divorce, meaning that dating and marriage should be more thought-out, more deliberate, and less rushed. The solution to this isn’t more dating and more of a life plan to get married, but a more developed and logical outlook on life. Your argument promotes outdated conservative ideals that can work, with limited success, only in a society based strongly on tradition and complete trust on authority.
Mr. Wilson’s previous argument is a great example of how modern views on dating do actually work. So people, be free, question authority, question societal standards, and look at life logically and rationally, but never forget to find TRUE happiness. Seeking fulfillment in life only by meeting cultural expectations and making money will result in a worthless, meaningless, empty life.
I disagree with this article 100%. I am a 22 year old in college. I am not responsible enough to start a family, nor do I believe I have done enough with my life to not resent any family I do start. I don’t typically go on dates with girls, I would rather hang out and keep it very casual.
It doesn’t send any mixed signals. I let her know I am interested in her, while not being interested in a serious relationship. It accomplishes all my goals I have for the opposite sex(not including girls I am just friends with.) I get sex. I learn what I would like in a girl I am going to have a relationship with. I have fun.
I see no hurry to rush into serious relationships, and I think that mindset is a major reason the divorce rate is astronomical in this country. How are you supposed to know what you want in a lifelong mate when you don’t even know yourself?
I’ll start looking for something serious when I am about 30, until then I will be perfectly content living my life and having fun with the women I meet.
Thanks Brett! Your article helped me out a lot on the whole issue of facebook. There’s this girl I want to ask out but I don’t personally know her, and I was working with the impossible – trying to ask her out without being lame and tacky. After reading your article I figure I’ll just keep it cool and get her cell number and do it in person. Thanks for the (indirect) help!
In this article and these comments I have been reading a lot about what women want, according to men. It has all been very enlightening to me, a woman, and has brought me to the conclusion that either A) I have been wholly ignorant of what it is I truly wanted for the last ten years, or B) I am not really a woman.
Guess what, all you manly men–not all of us are looking for the things that you think we are looking for. Not all of us are looking for some guy to sweep us off our feet. Not all of us are looking for someone to size us up like a rack of meat over drinks or dinner and to be assessed for fertility, submissive traits, homemaking skills, and marriageability. Not all of us are looking for some guy to impress us with how ballsy he is for wrangling situations into opportunities for him to prove his prowess, take-charge-ness, or to get just the two of you alone together. Not all of us want the pressure and awkwardness of having to navigate two hours of dinner with a near-stranger, trying desperately to think up enough small talk so you won’t hurt his feelings but so you also won’t also start spilling your life story to someone you wouldn’t even let borrow your car. Not all of us like to feel beholden to a guy just because he paid for dinner and a movie. Not all of us want to watch you perform your little routine of tricks you use to impress a woman, or listen to you trot out your list of topics and stories that you use to show how manly you are. Not all of us want you to convince us to fall for you. Not all of us want to follow the married-by-twenty-five-and-two-kids-by-thirty script that supposedly is the true sign of maturity in this culture. Not all of us feel that we have to be curing cancer either in order to justify our choice to not be married or in a constant rotation of intimate relationships.
It might be shocking and hurt your manly sensibilities, but some of us do want to just HANG OUT. Some of us don’t want to have the constant tension of sizing and being sized up as potential sex or life partners. Some of us want to be your friend. Some of us just want to have fun and to find fun people of both genders to have fun with. Some of us want to see you when you are relaxed and yourself. Some of us want to hear your hopes and your dreams and your struggles. Some of us want you to know that it is safe to say all of that and that you will still be a man and that you won’t be rejected for being honest and that we are cheering for you to succeed in life. Some of us want you to care about us too in the same way and know that it is because you care about us as a person and not just as a means to an end. Some of us want you to listen and actually be interested in our lives and well-being. Some of us actually find that kind of friendship very sexy and can actually fall in love with that. Some of us will even tell you so clearly and without playing games. Some of us can handle it when you say that you are not interested and will continue to still be your friend. Some of us can be very touched when you say you have feelings for us, which have bloomed over months and years of you really knowing us. Some of us can let you down gently and not make you feel like a fool for liking us more or differently than we like you. Some of us will feel safe enough with you that we will have sex with you. Some of us will marry you. Some of us will be able to break it off with you and still wish you the best and still be happy to hang out with you. Some of us just want you to stop holding yourself and us up to some ridiculous standard of what is a man and what is a woman. Some of us want you to find yourself and be happy with yourself so we won’t have to endure twenty years of marriage with you trying to force yourself to feel that this is what you really wanted out of life. Some of us just want you to be honest, fair, forthright, responsible, kind–you know, the stuff every human being should do.
I know…it sounds impossible…but it’s not. I am proof that women who are like this and who want these things really do exist. And I *hate* dating.
@Aspen
From reading your “not all of us” list, it seems like there are a few characteristics that are apparent throughout. From your list, it seems like you’ve had quite a number of experiences dating boys who have over-developed certain aspects of their personality in an attempt to make them appear like men. Two common themes seem to be boys putting on the “macho-man” facade to hide a lack of masculine development. The other is one that revolves around a lack of self-esteem which results in qualifying to the women to make her feel a need to reciprocate an action/favor.
“Macho Man”
For example, “Not all of us are looking for some guy to impress us with how ballsy he is for wrangling situations into opportunities for him to prove his prowess, take-charge-ness, or to get just the two of you alone together.”
“Low Self-Esteem & Qualifying”
For example, “Not all of us like to feel beholden to a guy just because he paid for dinner and a movie.” “Not all of us want to watch you perform your little routine of tricks you use to impress a woman, or listen to you trot out your list of topics and stories that you use to show how manly you are.”
I’m sorry that you’ve had to deal with these types of boys, but I assure you not all of us are like that. I hope that you don’t discard dating because of bad experiences.
— Brian
This article has a few faulty assumptions:
“It’s great that women can choose to have a career, be a stay-at-home mom, or do both.”
Guess what? It isn’t a choice. I had to support a family by myself, as do most women at some point in their lives. I didn’t have the choice of being a stay-at-home mom.
“Men have all these questions go through their head: Who asks? If I ask, will she think I’m too forward? Who pays for the date? Do we split the bill? All these uncertainties cause men to avoid dating altogether and opt for hanging out with women instead.”
What a “date” is has quite gotten lost. Who pays is not a male-female question; it’s a host-guest question. If a man invites a woman out, he pays — because he is the host. If a woman calls and says, “I have two theater tickets for Saturday night — would you be interested in joining me?” then SHE is the host(ess), and pays (i.e., run out after the phone call and buy the tickets). After the show, he might suggest a nightcap — the HE is again the host.
It’s not all that hard.
So what’s the time frame on a guy calling you back? And why cant a guy be honest and say “Hey, I’m not interested thanks for the BJ!”
Guys, don’t wait 72 hours to call her back, try the next day, you might get another one!
Been reading the responses, found a couple that could relate to what I’m dealing with, not totally sure about what to do however. I’ve known this girl for a year and a half now, but we didn’t really start being friends until the beginning of our senior year of highschool. We just graduated. Out of nowhere, and I mean that literally, we were going out to lunch every day during school. Didn’t seem too weird to me, second girl that is a friend, but it felt like a normal friendship. My problem is, or used to be it seems like, that I become really attached to said girls that are friends. I basically took a knife and murdered the first friendship because I couldn’t stand being 100% focused on her. I became very easy to anger, and almost everything set me off. I don’t know why, but it did. Was very depressed for a while, but I started getting over it when another girl suddenly started talking to me out of the blue. I had liked her a while before, but after asking her out and being rejected, we hadn’t talked for a long time. We talked for about 2 weeks while she was on vacation in Hawaii…. Still don’t know why she was talking to me of all people lol. Guessed she might’ve liked me, but I’ve been wrong before. We talked, I flipped sh*t, then we stopped. Became pretty short with everyone, all my friends said I look like I was about ready to kill the next person that looked at me funny. I didn’t like it, but I didn’t care enough to change it.
Sorry, back to this first girl haha. We hang out. A lot. A lot lot. Not in groups, just us. I hold the door open, I pay for dinner, she tries to, but I won’t let her. I don’t feel that she’s using me. We go on bike rides, we go on road trips, we go camping, etc. Is this dating OR WHAT? I was still in my stand-offish mood, and she knew it. She told me a few weeks ago she was this close to breaking the friendship off because she hated being around me when I was angry at the world. I still haven’t figured out if it’s a bad thing or a good thing that I tend to focus 100% on a girl, but it’s had it’s ups and downs. I met this girl’s friend at work, she had a crush on me a few months back, during which I was totally oblivious (because I was focused on my friend). We started talking and out of nowhere we were saying we were going steady. 1 problem, she was pregnant with someone else’s child. Dunno why I didn’t steer clear, the thought of possibly forcing myself to becoming a dad didn’t scare me, which should’ve stopped me dead in my tracks. Well, before we broke up out of nowhere, my friend had noticed that we were getting along much better. I had someone that I felt I was allowed to focus on, and they both loved it in their own ways. I ended up getting with my friend while me and the pregnant one were in a “gray area.” I know it’s cheating, I know me not being in any relationship prior to this is no excuse for my ineptitude, but it didn’t feel bad when I did it. Of course it does now, but we’re not together anymore so I’ve put it behind me. Lo and behold, after we break up, I’m back to being a grouch. I’ve gotten better, but it still comes up every once in a while. Especially when other guys move in on her. I don’t like being jealous or envious of every guy that gets close to her. I hate it. But it’s hard to try and find another girl when every ounce of my attention is given to my friend. I don’t obsess like I used to, but I literally don’t look at other girls. I don’t try not to look at them, they are just unappealing. We’re friends, I’m not trying to push it any further, but I can never tell if we’re friends, friends with benefits, or if it’s going somwhere further. It’s confusing, frustrating, madening, and I’m getting sick of it haha. I love our friendship, but I hate the baggage it seems to bring. Sorry that this is really confusing, my battery is about to die and I’m trying to get it out before I feel it won’t be worth it again haha. Any thoughts would be great. Thanks for taking the time to read
I couldn’t agree more. I would only add that when you request a date, make your intentions known, especially today. If you know the girl at all, because of her dealings with castrated men, she may not know for sure if you see it as a date or you being a buddy. For example, I work at a coffee sho and one of my customers intrigues me and I want to get to know her. I had to shop at her store recently and had a really good chat with her on a couple occasions. I’m going over there today to see if she wants to go for a cup of coffee (not at my shop) because I would like to get to know her. Every woman I know says the lack of communicating intentions is an unnecessary cause of confusion.
All the responses here have my head spinning with disbelief. In a sense, what a confused ‘dating’ vis-a-vis ‘hanging out’ scene has done is created a lot of false fantasies about what a relationship really is. In reality, for the typical American unit, it’s banal and gets trite within a few short mos or years. There’s no magic here, more than half the couples out there are divorced. It won’t magically get better with time. So the truth is that one simply needs to be upfront and deal with failure and such.
All and all, here’s where the successful American men end up… seeing high class escorts (in legal Canadian cities) for pleasure, flirting with local girls for fun (& passing some time, when not playing b-ball with guy friends), and settling down with a woman from Latin America or Asia-Pacific for companionship and starting a family. Yes, this hypothetical example is the last of the successful men in this country; the others are living lives of quiet desperation in hope that ‘one’s soulmate’ is around the corner at some book reading or rock climbing event.
think of it this way… either feel just a minute of awkwardness or have the thought of what if.. on the back of your mind.. a good idea is just to get yourself pumped up by like doing a manly growl or scream you know when you work out. then get your adrenaline pumping and just do it. and say to yourself just do it quit being a pu**y and be a man. by having yourself pumped up with adrenaline you lose 1/2 of your fear and having the thought of trying you will have no fear. just a bit nervous. but when you talk to her take a deep breath smile and dont say anything until she says yes or what or something. then while smiling say something funny and smooth… funny wins her attention and smooth wins her heart?… or if you know how the girl is try this… during one of her classes just enter most likely everyone will look at you.. if you are in high school.. if in college i dont know… but anyway dont say anything just walk in and if the teacher says yes? put your index finger in the air saying like 1 sec walk over to her seat whisper or say softly close your eyes for a sec. plant one on her…*kiss her* then walk out.. the worst think that can happen is she rejects your kiss and you can say something funny like “well that didnt work” or “there goes my plan”. leave with style dont be a loser and just leave if she rejects you.
or another way is.. if your like presenting for some girl you likes class or your in the same class as her and your presenting…. after your done say oh yeah 1 more thing then walk to her desk and say close your eyes for a sec and kiss her… i dont really know you have to be original and make your own stuff up taking my idea is good but you gotta learn to make your own ideas. just branch off of mine. although you will need a huge pair of balls to do this.
For me what this comes down to is what Men really want from women is intimacy.
Intimacy as a best Friend this is the start. And a woman saying you’re friends isn’t enough. I imagine friends will not even be brought up; it will be a given. I hope. I never have experienced the progression to the intimacy and the romance but it seems logical. Of course your friends, but more and more friends further and further away from everyone else, secret intimate friends.
Damn, Thats what I want. I never can pull it off; once they see you as a friend your stuck in the woman’s limited idea of what that means.
Friendship is in reality a love, and even as great a love as Eros(romantic love)
CS Lewis.
Also see The Four Loves the top of page 73 pretty much sums up my recent experience. Damn.
Thanks man, tomorrow im going to ask this girl out that i like but have been too shy to ask, time to man up and just ask her, great advice and hoping for the best
Marriage:
Have you seen the legal and social climate for marriage? Seriously?
Dating:
There are two sides to dating. Guys may have to “man up” but women have their path to tread too.
And having started to date again, all I can say is that it’s not just the guys that are the issue. How about some general manners like “thanks for the nice dinner and X” and perhaps a kiss on the cheek. Hey, perhaps even a second date to see if perhaps candidate No. 1 was a little nervous/stiff/out of sorts/ on Date 1?
Aspen I understand where you are coming from. I was in love with a girl just like you. Shared the same views, hated dating etc. But none of that is a reason to stop dating. It can be a good experience if you just take some time to get to know the person not crush on them or anything. Like learn some valuable things about the person their dreams, goals, and such. With dating you have to weed out your potential boyfriends. You can’t just date any average joe. They have to be special. That’s what makes dating such a unique, and fun experience.
I wish you luck on your future relationships.
Most girls, especially Asian girls are waiting for men to ask them out first. So men should do the first move to resurrect the exciting dating experience. By doing so, you can level up your relationship stage from being friends to a romantic lovers.
alright so there is this chick in my school that i like and about a week ago i gathered enough ballz to talk to her when i seen her in the halls and now i talk to her once in a while in one of my classes… ok so now shes doing that “hard to get” crap which i can easily pick up on but i still catch her eye a couple times aday so i know shes interested, so today i decided to not pay any attention to her to see how she would react and she was doing a bunch of shit to get my attention like laughing louder then normal and doing that classic school girl whisper thing with her friend trying to get my attention… so im just wondering… wtf do i do now? im not just trying to get in her pants but i actualy want to start a relationship. it hasn’t gone to the point where we talk like friends would so i know theres a sh!tlod of work left to be done before i can even start hanging out with her… and then ask her out
@RANdomIZED
I don’t understand the whole “hard to get” thing. Either you like someone or you don’t, there’s no “game” about it. I don’t know what grade you’re in, so I can’t tell you exactly how it usually works in your grade. When you’re out of school, you date people to get to know them. You aren’t in a relationship yet, but if things go right eventually you move into one. In that case, you don’t have to hang out with her before you ask her, because the whole process of dating would involve getting-to-know-her-better.
Whatever way, the next thing you should do is tell her that you like her. Wait until you’re alone with her or set it up somehow. Otherwise, it’ll either take a long time or it will never happen.
Thank you! Beautifully and simply put. If you haven’t already, would you write something for the ladies on how to say no without further contributing to mens’ aversions to asking us out?
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