Stop Hanging Out With Women and Start Dating Them
January 16, 2008
Over the past few years, many social observers have noted that young adults are dating less. Instead, dating is being replaced by “hanging out” with members of the opposite sex. Dating and hanging out are two completely different things.
Hanging out consists of people getting together in groups and doing stuff together. It could be going to a club, a restaurant, or just staying home and playing Wii. The atmosphere is relaxed and relations among opposite sexes never rises above the level of friendship. There is nothing wrong with hanging out, but it is not a replacement for dating.
Dating consists of pairing off with someone in a temporary commitment so you can get to know the person better and perhaps start a long term relationship with them.
Why the decline in dating?
There are probably lots of factors that have contributed to the decline of dating amongst young adults. Here are few possible ones:
1. Young adults don’t like to commit. It seems like people in my generation aren’t big on making commitments to people or to organizations. Generation Y is too busy trying to “find themselves” in order to commit to anybody or anything. Companies have complained about the turn over rate of Generation Y. Companies invest lots of money training new employees only to have them leave after two years so they can find a new job. This reluctance to commit has carried over to the interaction between the sexes. Young adults don’t want to be tied down to someone just in case they get an itch to go on a backpacking trip to Europe.
2. The internet has retarded Generation Y’s social skills. Instead of telling a person directly that they’re interested in them by asking them on a date, Generation Y sends Crush alerts on Facebook. While the internet has made connecting with people easier, it has also made us lazier at establishing meaningful relationships. If you’re over 18 and you’re still using Facebook applications to let someone know you’re interested in them, you need to be punched in the face.
3. Feminism. Before I receive the wrath of all the feminists telling me it’s a typical man thing to blame women for the decline in dating, I ask that you hear me out. I think feminism is great. It’s great that women can choose to have a career, be a stay-at-home mom, or do both.
But it does make things confusing for men. Navigating relations among the sexes is a bit more tricky today. Men have all these questions go through their head: Who asks? If I ask, will she think I’m too forward? Who pays for the date? Do we split the bill? All these uncertainties cause men to avoid dating altogether and opt for hanging out with women instead.
4. Men today are wussies. Men today aren’t very resilient. They don’t know how to handle rejection or failure, so they avoid rejection or failure by not asking women out on dates.
Why date?
The whole point of dating is to find someone you can settle down and start a family with. That’s right. I’m encouraging young adult males to get hitched. This flies completely in the face of the popular trend of putting off marriage as long as possible so you can “find yourself” or “develop your passion.” Here’s the deal. Starting a family forces you to man up. A family is a responsibility. Responsibility breeds character. Character makes men. If you’re 30, single, and still feel like an adolescent, it’s probably because you still are. You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood- family. And you may be surprised to find your passion and yourself in marriage. Marriage doesn’t mean an end to your personal progression. It just means you get to take on life with a best friend and lover by your side. Which makes the journey much more fun.
So, getting back to dating. Dating is the first step you take in finding that lovely lady you’re going to spend the rest of your life with. You might be hanging out with her and your friends right now, but if you don’t take her on date, she’ll forever be just your friend.
Resurrect Dating
So, you’re ready to start dating and stop hanging out. It really is not that hard to get a date with a woman. Here are some guidelines to remember as you take hanging out up a level to dating.
1. She wants you to ask. Despite the rhetoric you hear about the liberated woman, women still appreciate it when a guy asks her out on a date. They like when men take the initiative. I’ve heard lots of successful young professional women lament the fact that men don’t ask them out. They’re beautiful, smart, and charming, but don’t have a man. Be a man and ask these women out.
2. Asking is easy. Asking a woman out on a date isn’t rocket science. When you ask, though, do it in person or over the phone. If you’re poking a woman you’re interested in on Facebook, you lose any credibility as a man.
3. Keep dates simple. Dates don’t have to be huge, expensive affairs. Keep it simple. If you want to keep things informal, ask her out for lunch or coffee. If you want a more romantic date, invite her over to your place and make dinner for her. She’ll be impressed that you know how to cook. The whole point of dating is to get some one on one interaction with a person to find out if she is someone you’d like to start a long term relationship with. Simple and frequent dates will assist you in this.
4. Prepare for rejection. Face it. Not every woman you ask out is going to say yes. Prepare for that. It’s no big deal if she says no. Think about it. You’re no worse off getting rejected than you were before you asked. You didn’t have a date with her before, you don’t have a date with her now. Your situation has not changed.
5. Just do it, damn it. So what are you waiting for? Quit reading this post right now and pick up your cell phone. Call a woman and ask her on a date. Stop hanging out and start dating. Stop being scared of commitment. Commitment is liberating, not confining.
I expect a lot of debate on this post. Please keep the conversation civil. It’s possible to disagree and still be a gentleman or a lady about it.
If you liked this article, please bookmark it on del.icio.us or vote for it on Digg. I’d appreciate it.
Subscribe to Art of Manliness by RSS or email to get your FREE guide to being a gentleman in 2008.
Image from DeborahK.
I enjoy your articles. You usually get straight to the point. I get the point about this site being a conversation on manliness, however I am usually thrown off by the articles with cursing. Does it make you feel more manly?
Jonathan-
“Damn” is a really mild curse I think. It seems like he’s using “just do it, damn it” as the site’s motto. “Just do it, darn it” wouldn’t have quite the same effect.
I know Brett, and you would be hard pressed to find a more clean living, clean talking man.
Great post! I can’t tell you how much I hate “hanging out” with a girl I’m actually interested in. There is no way to let her know you’re interested if you’re always in a big group of people.
Dates are definitely a lost art form. The thing that gets me is that girls are actually confused when you do ask them on a date. It’s like, you want to go to dinner? Just with me?
I think the whole college scene these days also has a big influence on the decline of dating. College is all groups, all the time. I actually think it really delays the passage into “adulthood.” I don’t know if its just our generations propensity to be team players or if its a societal shift brought on by an increase in life expectancy rates, but its no excuse for dating to go out of fashion.
Anyway, love the site. Keep it up.
-Ryan
I like to think I’m pretty uncompetent with the opposite sex, but interestingly enough, I’m in a current relationship.
Its’ not that I’m incompetent with women in general, just when it comes to dating. I have numerous friends who are girls and I like to hang out with them often. The way I worked up until my relationship was that I liked several of my girl ‘friends’ but tried to keep this secret. One of the girl ‘friends’ I have has a best friend who I liked, but rarely got to hang out. After some time, I decided to take initiative and ask her out, but everytime I arranged something with her and other people(to test the ground), she always came up with excuses. I thought she was avoiding me, but then I found out that one of my friends had told her I liked her, and that she liked me in reverse.
Sadly, she took the initiative and sent me a text message stating this. In response, I arranged something the next day. I guess it was kind of reciprocal.
I don’t see our relationship at all attempting to form a family, but maybe that is just because I’m still naive and in high school.
Ryan-
Those are all excellent points. I noticed the group mentality among college students when I waited tables in a college town. I hardly ever saw couples come into the restaurant. It was usually HUGE parties of men and women.
Jon-
Even though you you’re only in high school, doesn’t make dating any less important. I’d advise you not to get too serious with anyone while you’re still young, but go on as many dates as you can. And by date I mean, you and girl together alone on a planned event. No groups. It’s just good practice for when you’re older and are ready to get more serious with woman. By dating frequently, you’ll know how to relate to women better and you’ll also have a good idea of what you like and don’t like in a potential mate.
Good luck!
Jonathan-
A great American religious leader named Heber J. Grant once said, ” ‘Damn’ is not swearing. It is only emphasis.”
I’ll probably use damn and hell throughout my posts. Like Matt said, they’re pretty tame curse words and not vulgar. Men I look up to who exemplify gentlemanly dignity peppered their vocab with an occasional “hell” or “damn”. It made talking with them exciting and yeah, it sounds pretty manly. I’ll promise that the language will never go into unspeakable vulgarities that many men are apt to speak today. To do so would be ungentlemanly.
“Just do it, damn it,” conveys the sense of urgency I hope men feel about changing their lives. Their heads and hearts are hard, so I must speak to them hard.
Brett,
I agree that in modern times those words do not come across as being vulgar like many years ago. I will disagree about them being tame curse words. The spiritual context and origins of the words make them not something to be used lightly. But enough of that rabbit trail…
I do like the writing on here so far though. Now that I’ve started to think about manliness in regards to religion and beliefs, I am curious as to your viewpoint and whether you consider belief in such things as traits of being a man.
Hey Brett,
I love your attitude and your writing skills. I didn’t even notice where you “cursed”, but I’m Scottish, so it’s probably just a part of my everyday dialect
You’ve got to love this bit…..
>If you’re over 18 and you’re still using Facebook applications to let someone know you’re interested in them, you need to be punched in the face.
Keep up the straightforward, punch in the face, style too
~ Paul
@Jonathan-
I’m glad you brought up spirituality and religion in regards to manliness. I do think think spirituality is an important part of manliness. Great men from the past stressed the importance of having a spiritual life. I have some post ideas peculating in my head at the moment about this topic, so check back soon!
@Paul
I’m glad to have a Scotsman among us. Perhaps you can share the ways of the rough knuckle football hooligan.
The Art of Manliness is all about manning you up. If it takes a punch in the face to get your attention, we’ll do it.
i think half the reason guys don’t date is because they can “hook up” with girls at parties. i think “hooking up” is about the most disrespectful think a guy can do to a young girl. if everybody hangs out as a group and just makes out whenever and with whomever they want, these kids don’t see any need for dating.
have some respect for yourself and for the person you like and spent some time with them instead of just using their body.
Hi everyone,
I think that this was largely worthwhile (and very interesting and informative) reading. Although I’m a COMPLETE non-dater (for various scientific reasons beyond the scope of this article that I don’t care to get into great detail about), I do whole-heartedly agree with “Starting a family forces you to man up” (even though I obviously have NO DESIRE to do so, but I COMPLETELY respect anyone/everyone who does). By the way, I’m currently 34 years old. I’ve been told MANY times throughout my life (and I’ve also had this written in my junior and high school yearbooks by some male and female friends) that I’d make a great father and have great kids and be a great husband to a great lady someday. Although it’s obviously meant as a compliment to me, I do kind of take some offense to such remarks. They just automatically ASSUME that I MUST, OF COURSE, have the SAME wants/needs/desires/etc. as THEY (and MOST people) DO that I OBVIOUSLY DON’T. To me, it just seems plain rude to “judge”, let alone, “size up”, ANYONE … PERIOD. I’ve always felt it’s better to not assume anything about anyone in any/all regard(s).
I’ve had MANY people over the years question me on why I’m not married, married with any child(ren), have a steady girlfriend, or even bother to date. Really, I don’t at all mind people asking me such things, as I’m VERY honest and forthright in my remarks/answers/explanations/etc. What I DO NOT appreciate/respect is when people assume that I MUST be gay and/or there’s something “wrong” with me. I’m just a LOT different from MOST other people, that’s all — plain and simple. REGARDLESS of what I say to these people and how civil and polite I am, they end up being HIGHLY irate, hostile and VERY mean-spirited to me. They feel this “need” to “put me down”, embarass me, attract a LOT of negative attention to me (and get others involved in it as well — much like a chain reaction). Although none of that really bothers me at all (depsite me pointing this out), I do think that that is TOTALLY unncessary, as I don’t engage anyone who’s different from me in such ways. To be fair, I’ve had a lot people offer a LOT of positive encouragement/reinforcement in wanting to see me date, marry, raise a family, etc., and I think they have good intentions/reasons towards me in wanting me to do so. However, I’ve also met those who’ve stated that they’re automatically “better” and/or “more important” than me, since they can handle more responsibility than I can. That’s not completely fair, true nor accurate. Yes, perhaps they CAN handle more responsibility than me; perhaps they CAN’T. Perhaps I’d make a great husband and father; perhaps I’d make the worst. It’s really irrelevant either way. To me, the question is just simply whether I’d want to. I don’t see myself as being any more/less of a man/person in any sense. All it comes down to is the fact that those who’ve married, raisied children, etc. are pursuing what THEY want for THEMSELVES; I’m pursuing what I want for MYSELF. Irregardless, I wish EVERYONE well in their decisions. I’ve even been considered “selfish” and “evil”, or even “taking the easy way out” in my chosen solitary existence. (Believe me, being alone has its’ advantages/disadvantages much like dating, marriage, raising a family, etc. has its’ own. It all depends on how an individual weighs out the pros and cons of each for himself/herself, that’s all.) I’m fine with myself the way I am and I function quite well the way I am.
If people don’t realize/appreciate/respect that, then that’s THEIR problem, NOT mine. NO ONE is any better or worse than the next person. Everyone is different and unique in their own special way(s). We all must live our lives according to how WE deem fit and appropriate. NO ONE has the right to force ANYTHING on ANYONE. To me, it seems quite evident that this whole dating thing is so utterly forced down people’s throats, as society’s largely been, is, and will probably ALWAYS be this way. It’s one thing to offer suggestions, advice and the like; it’s another to just simply flat out tell people how they MUST live THEIR lives, OR ELSE. Perhaps us non-daters are just a representation of how much wider and more varied the universe actually is than previously thought.
I apologize in advance for writing so much (and using captial letters in various places — just for added emphasis), but I felt the need to get this out in the open. Perhaps it all just boils down to a little extra “food for thought”.
All the best,
— Ken
Brett - You said: “I have some post ideas peculating in my head at the moment about this topic, so check back soon!”
I believe you me percolating as opposed to peculating. Peculating is synonymous to embezzlement; percolating means to show activity with clarity or filtration.
There is nothing more manly than knowing proper grammar and vocabulary.
Hey Guys!
Please don’t feel violated…I kind of feel as though I’m stepping into a “man’s club”…but, just a few notes:
As a woman involved in a committed relationship which doesn’t have any hint of marriage in the near or distant future:
I feel that hanging out with girls could be just the same as ‘dating’ them…it’s just formatted to fit our times. or, sometimes, hanging out may lead to dating more seriously along the line…(a.k.a. going steady)
I really don’t feel as though non-dating is a sign of non-committment at all…I personally feel as though it’s a lot more realistic for us ‘youngsters’ in this day and age…just take a look at marriage/divorce rates. Also, when looking at birth rates (especially those out of wedlock), it’s obvious (to me, anyway) that ppl. don’t yield the same social constraints to have a traditional family as those living perhaps 50 or so years ago.
Hanging out is a way to actually get to know the woman/man you’re dating. It gives you an opportunity to determine if you even want to ‘date’ that person or continue a friendship. I think dating viewed in it’s context 50 years ago would leave most women today feeling as though they were being prepped for a nightmarish journey into disillusionment. Explanation: those who ‘dated’, would traditionally wear their beau’s “letter” (sports jackets…jock/cheerleader types or something to that effect), then get engaged (many tittering girlfriends coaching a girl on how to handle her ‘man’, etc), have a wedding/get married (note the conotations of each), have kids, buy a house, continue (possibly unhappily) or divorce.
this synopsis is very tongue in cheek and a broad generaliztion…i don’t mean to infer that everyone follow’s this path, but even as a 30 yr old in the 21st century, i still feel EXTREMELY pressured to settle down and have kids…even though i don’t want to, i sometimes find myself musing about it after some 40 yr old tells me, “oh, your clock will kick in and you’ll want kids…just you wait!”….
AHHHGGGGHHHH!!!!! i really don’t want kids…i love them (if they belong to someone else). i am “finding myself”…but i don’t think that’s a bad thing…(i’m a borderline GenXer/Y).
Ultimately…this little blurb is encouragement to y’all to continue “hanging out” with girls. only date them if both of you really want to. oh, and dating doesn’t need to lead to marriage or otherwise (to any girl who is honest with herself)…
oh, also, if a girl tells you that she doesn’t mind being casual while dating…be cautious…could come back to haunt you….as with all men, women all have different views of relationships…some actually are okay with both of you hanging out with other guys/girls…but many aren’t and would be heartbroken and point to “cheating” if you took her literally… just a tip:)
thanks for your ears! keep hanging out!
-sarah
Hanging out is when guys are too lazy to open doors for you or pay for you. It is the way out of responsibility. That is what society is all about these days “How can a get away with only thinking about myself?!!” I am not saying the “hanging out” is selfish but more just the easy way out and I am ready for some responsibility to start happening and to be treated like a lady not just a friend (sometimes there is a big difference between the two).
@ Ken- wow! I think that’s the longest comment I’ve ever seen. Thanks for taking the time write it. You make good points and I respect your opinion. I know a lot of single people who have devoted themselves to a higher cause than themselves. Single people have a lot to offer society that people married with family can’t offer. They often have more time and more resources to devote to betting their communities. But I think the problem today is that people are staying single just so they can indulge themselves. It’s individualism taken to the extreme.
@ Sarah- Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I don’t have a problem with “hanging out.” I encourage it. The problem, and I think moi, nailed it on the head, is that young people get stuck in hang out mode. They use it as an excuse to not take things to the next level.
@moi- Thanks for your comment. I agree with you 100%
This is the article I’ve been waiting for. I hope that all the men who read this heed these rules (especially the first one, “she wants you to ask”).
It really is that simple. Take initiative, let her know you’re into her, and for god’s sake, stop waiting around for her to make a move! Display your affection: ask her out, hold her hand on a date, kiss her goodnight if the date goes well. And if you don’t do those things, you’re just dull, lackluster, and unromantic. And by the way, you don’t have to love someone to be romantic. A little romance– which only takes a little effort, like giving her a single flower, for example– will only make her feel special (and there could be something in it for you, too).
I guess… just to see some effort on the guy’s part is encouraging.
@shoshi:
Thanks for your comments. It’s always nice to get a woman’s perspective on dating. My wife loves it when I surprise her with flowers. They don’t cost much, but it makes her day.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the fact that getting married, if you are truly committed to the marriage, does indeed make men/women out of teenagers of any age. I am not going to say that everyone needs to get married (there are other ways to foster maturity), but for some, waiting to marry gives them subconscious permission to act as they please. There is no drive to create stability through financial security, personal development, and an understanding of the opposite sex. Hanging out is fine and fun when young, but it does not require you to intimately (I don’t mean in the sexual sense) understand anyone of the opposite sex. I think real dating allows you to get to know individual members of the opposite sex and find out the differences in the way you think and feel.
Please continue the good writing. I also want to thank most of the comment writers for handling a controversial subject well.
Great article. Too many wussies out there just use online dating sites, myspace, and facebook, and think they’re going to find the perfect girl from personal ads. The hottest women out there aren’t even on the internet. They’re usually out doing stuff. So men, it’s time to get out and go to a gym, the mall, parks, art museums. Get the courage to be a man and confront a woman. What do you have to lose? If she says no, just be a gentleman and walk away. Women are attracted to confidence.
As a reinforcement to what’s already been said, just being asked is nice.
I hate trying to pull it out of a guy, trying to make sure I send all of the obvious I’m-interested signals, here’s your big heaping scoop of encouragement balanced with non-desperation - it’s exhausting! If you’re interested, step up and ask. I’ve never heard of a woman (who’s not stuck up) who didn’t thoroughly appreciate being asked, even if she’s not interested. It’s always a compliment, it’s always flattering.
Any worthwhile woman will graciously decline or enthusiastically accept. I’d venture to say I might go on a date with a guy just because he was bold enough to ask.
This is all well and good, however, I disagree with your 4th point under Resurrect Dating:
“It’s no big deal if she says no. Think about it. You’re no worse off getting rejected than you were before you asked.”
No worse off is a very bad characterization. I have very few female friends. The ones I have, I do not feel I can afford to lose. If I were to ask one out, and were to recieve an affirmative answer, I would be a very happy camper (not sure where that phrase came from.) If, on the other hand, I were to receive a negative answer, I have a feeling that being in that person’s presence in the future would, in and of itself, cause an awkward situation.
I’m not sure where I’m going with this, though. I’ve never had the nerve to ask and see what would happen. (Yes, sadly, /never/.)
Brett you have undoubtedly heard of the DINKS generation. Duel Income No KidS. Do not go around and breed; you are doing the world a dis-service. Get in make money get out. Kids = cannon fodder for wars.
@Bob Dole:
That’s a pretty cynical and selfish view. Children can bring men some of their greatest joys. It’s how we can make sure a part of use keeps going even after we’re worm food.
In response to James, I have found that being turned down by a girl that you are friends with does not have to mean the end of the friendship. It might make things slightly awkward for a period afterwards, but as long as you act cool about it, a real friend will respect you for asking and taking the rejection in stride. Maybe not in every case, but that has been my experience on several occasions (and I have never had a friendship end just because a girl turned me down).
So go ahead and ask — if she turns you down and stops being your friend, chances are that either (a) she isn’t worth being friends with anyway, or (b) you are being a creep about it and are making her feel uncomfortable because she thinks you really want her badly.
Now, if you do go out for a while and then break up, then I think you do have a higher chance of losing the friendship (depending on why you broke up). But I can’t speak from experience there…
A refreshing read. I agree on all points. In my early (college) years I didn’t man up enough and always tried to engineer dates. I was prone to making ridiculous romantic gestures and trying to come up with complicated schemes to make an impression. I tried to befriend girls and upgrade them to dates by stealth. None of it worked and I went dateless. When I was in school I thought I needed a car to get a date. When I had a car I thought I needed my own place. When I had my own place I ran clean out of excuses.
Finally I worked out that girls (especially in your early twenties) don’t care about what car you drive, where you live or anything like that. They’re smart enough to know that if you’re educated and hard working, chances are you’ll get all that stuff. What they want is a decisive, confident guy who knows what he wants and isn’t scared of hanging it all out and taking the initiative to ask them out. Once I just started asking girls out they actually started saying yes.
A good friend of mine really showed me the way by example. He would always walk up the best looking girl in the room and start talking to her politely. He never tried any sleazy pick up lines or try and get them drunk or anything. He was the most polite guy I have ever known, always opening doors, offering jackets and all that. To the cynical types snickering into their beers, he was a dweeb and a try hard. He certainly got knock backs and rejections, I personally saw many of them. To the girls though, he was a real man. Most of the time they were flattered and taken aback by his directness. Now he has the hottest girlfriend you ever saw, who is smart, beautiful, charming and totally devoted to him. I think that’s worth a little mockery from your (immature) friends. It’s all about manning up and learning that movie plots only work in movies.
I agree with most of what you said in the post.
Perhaps it’s just semantics, but I think what is missing today is the concept of courtship. Dating connotes frivolity, i.e., directionless mingling just for the sake of having a good time. To the contrary, courtship is designed with one goal in mind: to discern whether or not to get married.
Your post alludes to that purpose, but lumps it under the heading “dating.” Since today’s culture doesn’t associate marriage with dating at all anymore, it is perhaps more appropriate to refer to it as courtship.
Charles Kingsley famously said, “Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth.” In the same fashion, it is up to us men to be Real Men and resurrect the art of courtship.
Alessandro-
You make an excellent point. “Dating” doesn’t connote the same things that it once did and has become a umbrella term for everything from frivolous hanging out to serious relationships. Dating should absolutely be as you described it-a chance to see if a person would make a compatible marriage partner or not. I think “courtship” as a term just isn’t as familiar today and thus “Stop Hanging Out and Start Courting” didn’t sound quite right.
I utterly and completely agree with you on this 110%.
My problem, however, lies with the women. I have no problem asking women out and my friends are even surprised, shocked and amused with how forward I am at times, but I ask and many have even said that I’ve gone on more dates in the last year than they have. And my attitude has just been to have fun and get to know the person to continue and see if this is something that could work out.
Unfortunately, I seem to run into a lot of women that didn’t grow up in Southern California or something and are confused that I can ask them out on a date after only knowing them a short time (and maybe only meeting them once). I tell them that something about their personality sparked my interest and I’m asking them out to root that out and find out if anything is really there, but they are turned off. More than once, I’ve heard, “How can you even like me already? You barely know me?”
It just literally boggles my mind.
Good read, though. Thank you and I will surely be passing this along to a few of those people in my life that need to read this.
I think you underestimate the value of groups to help protect women. In this day and age, women often don’t have the bonds of family or neighborhood to keep them safe and secure. Consequently, they only date members of the tribe–people who are friends of friends, and are thus pre-selected. I recall a woman scoffing when a NYC cop asked her out to dinner after they met in an elevator. As she explained, you hook up with people you already know.
People “date” plenty , but it is typically after they have met people in a group environment and have spent some serious time with them. Though random pick-ups do occur often enough! People can tell that they have something in common with one another by their dress, decorum, or even the look in their eyes. Certain neighborhoods even generate their own forms of community.
“Unfortunately, I seem to run into a lot of women that didn’t grow up in Southern California or something and are confused that I can ask them out on a date after only knowing them a short time (and maybe only meeting them once). I tell them that something about their personality sparked my interest and I’m asking them out to root that out and find out if anything is really there, but they are turned off. More than once, I’ve heard, “How can you even like me already? You barely know me?””
To me that seems a very sensible attitude. I think it’s wonderful that young people hang out in groups. There’s not enough community in this country as it is.
As for dating being a prelude to marriage–sure it can be, but would a “real man” let marriage interfere with him “finding himself” or “developing his passion?” I think not. Sad to say, many great achievers have neglected their families, but often that is something that “real men” have often had to do throughout history.
You are the best I have read.
@Bradford Stewart:
Thanks for the kind words. I went and checked out your art. Good stuff!
It seems to me that “hangin out” is just a way for a guy to say you are good enough until something else better comes along. The grass is always greener…what is so wrong with dating anyway??? What it is if you are dating than you have to have the breakup conversation…if you are just hanging out, you feel you can just slip into the abyss…lazy, selfish and if you are doing that than you are just the girl to feel good about yourself in the moment…its not about her. Cause as is proven time after time if a guy really wants to be with you and no one else he will. Stop dabbling…don’t hang out unless you truly want to date. It is just confusing for everyone
Max has an excellent point- a woman (and a courteous date) must keep her safety in mind; groups and crowds are an effective way to keep oneself safe.
When approaching a woman romantically a thoughtful man will try to view himself from her vantage point. If she barely knows him then he would do well to remember that this woman has every reason to be suspicious or scared of him and and he should not pressure her or take advantage of her politeness.
And on women turning dates down- A ‘no’ answer isn’t a bad thing at all, especially when you consider how bad a unwilling ‘yes’ can be. I’ve had more than one date that I wish had turned me down upfront. In high school, for a school dance my date didn’t want to go with me, accepted my invitation out of politeness, and was sullen and unresponsive the whole evening. If the answer had been ‘no’ at the start then I would have been free to find someone else to go with, and we both could have avoided a singularly unpleasant evening.
“The atmosphere is relaxed and relations among opposite sexes never rises above the level of friendship.”
I don’t know where you get this idea, but when I was in uni, all we ever did was hang out. Nobody went on dates, the concept was foreign and a bit silly to us, like doffing your hat or something.
All the people in that particular group, bar one, are now in couples with the people they met in college, including me. Of course we are! You really think you can have a close knit group of single people of mixed sex, and not have them hook up? How weird.
It’s really easy to look at ‘hanging out’ from the outside and scoff that ‘these kids have no sense of responsibility’. It’s the easy way out, is it? I think not. You know how hard it is to keep a group of friends together while they hook up, break up, throw fits, get depressed, get better and still try to love each other? It’s hard work sometimes, but it’s worth it, because it gives you a sense of community and a variety of people you can call on or get involved with. And it means that if you break up with that one special person, you don’t end up sitting in a lonely little room somewhere wondering when you’ll next get the courage to ask someone out, or, if you’re a woman, when someone will next bother to ask you out!
It also gives hardened singletons a way to feel included and involved. Not everyone dates. Not everyone is ready, not everyone wants to, not everyone is attractive enough to. What are they supposed to do while all the “good” people are dating? How SELFISH to date, and not spend time with your un-hooked friends!
See how easy it is to pooh-pooh someone else’s ways of doing things? Talk about lazy!
I think dating is rediculous. I’ve never been on a formal date, and I’m sure I’d feel really uncomfortable and forced. What, you’re supposed to spend an evening with someone you barely know while you’re both trying to decide if you want to hook up? No pressure or anything! From what I hear around me, it doesn’t seem to work very well as a mate-finding method anyway. I think I’ll stick to hanging out.
I agree with the part about people being afraid to commit. A good long term relation is awesome and really rewarding. However I don’t believe that starting a family forces you to be a man. I know too many relationships that ended because the guy never grew up at all, so I find that logic flawed. Sadly many of those relationships had children in them, so the kids get to deal with a break up. Bad times.
I find a lot of these articles written from an “alpha” personality point of view. The advice here is great for them, but for others… it’s going to be different. Rejection hits many people differently. “It’s no big deal if she says no” is water off a duck’s back for some but others take it badly and are far less cavalier about it.
That siad, there’s a lot of good information here.
Late getting here, but I’ll still add my thoughts. I know, for a lot of people at the high school level, it’s the fact that said woman will tell other said women, thus leading to knowledge of all potential dates that this man was rejected, and at the high school level (I know nothing matters at this level) said women may reject for the amusement.
Another latecomer, found this after just having some inquisitive thoughts on the current dating scene. I thought this article had a few great points, especially the Facebook comment. So true and yet so painful to face. Not to mention of course sites like Facebook and Myspace have not only distilled the dating scene, but our social interaction as well. As a bizarre experiment, I’m going to cancel my Myspace account, and just see how many people start calling me instead of leaving me comments and messages. A test of true friendship.
I have to disagree with the idea that the purpose of dating is to find a woman to start a family with. I personally have no intentions of doing so. In fact, now that I’m 29, I’ve come to realize that the longer you go without kids, the more you realize how little you need them. Times are different, there’s no need to leave a legacy anymore. Making meaningul contributions to society does not mean functioning as a brood mare for the state. Not to mention the multiple family men who look at me, their spirits broken, and tell me how important it is to NOT get married and have kids. Or at least to wait for as long as possible. Maybe marriage and kids was a great thing decades ago, but I really don’t see it. My parents are still very happy after 20 years, but when I look around the office and talk to these poor guys in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, I count my lucky stars I’m not hitched. Whether broken by an unhappy marriage or worse yet, a financially-crippling divorce, it just seems like getting married is the last thing I would want to do.
Besides, what is marriage but a government contract forcing you, under penalty of having to deal with lawyers, to stay with someone, even if you don’t love them? Personally, I think that’s why there’s such a high number of unhappy marriages. When you have a binding contract to stay with someone, why love them?
What’s wrong with just loving a woman and staying committed to her without marriage? I have an aunt and uncle who have been together since the early 70s and never got married. Of course, they’re a couple of traveling hippies, so maybe bucking the marriage convention of the establisment is just part of their whole philosophy, but still. They’re perfectly happy just being together.
But of course, maybe I’m just talking out of my rear end because I’m single and haven’t dated in a VERY long time. I’m sure if I follow some of the pointers outlined in this article I’ll run into a woman who might turn me around on the whole marriage prospect. My problem is that lately the women I’ve met have run into two extremes:
First are the women who are about as interesting as watching paint dry. I might be too picky, but it takes more than looks to spark my interest. I’m curious about women. I like to ask questions, get to know their ambitions, their interests, what they think about certain issues. Especially their artistic side, like what music and movies they’re into. And I’m usually answered with blank expressions and monosyllabic responses. Trying to initiate an interesting or even time-killing conversation with them is a challenge in of itself, never mind getting to the “asking them out on a date” part. Shoot, that’s become the easy part! And by the way, would it kill them to smile occasionally?
Then on the polar opposite are the “ME! ME! ME!” gals. Usually the one who almost all the guys in the group have “hooked up” with at least once, they never shut up about their most beloved topic: themselves. What they think about so-and-so, who they like, who they don’t like, their issues, their classes, their friends. And gods forbid they get some liquor in them. Normally I don’t mind a woman who’s willing to share her views on any variety of topics, but I’m sorry, I couldn’t care less about who left you a nasty message on your Friendster page, what that b*tch behind you in your Thursday morning class said about you, or who you slept with at the party last Saturday.
Personality is more important to me than anything when it comes to dating, and unfortunately, I’m still looking for the woman who has one.
“4. Men today are wussies. Men today aren’t very resilient. They don’t know how to handle rejection or failure, so they avoid rejection or failure by not asking women out on dates”.
And since women never have to face rejection b/c they are not expected to initiate with men, they are totally resilient to rejection right? I call bullshit, women need to learn how to deal with rejection for a change. Men have been doing it for decades, don’t suddenly turn it on men that todays man is a wussy. Women have more than their fair share in that department.
“Why date?
The whole point of dating is to find someone you can settle down and start a family with”.
No its not! Maybe for some people. But the point in dating for others is simply to find companionship or to simply date many people. I know of people that are single that like to date more than one person. Don’t compartmentalize the reasons behind dating as a fit for everyone.
“Starting a family forces you to man up. A family is a responsibility. Responsibility breeds character. Character makes men. If you’re 30, single, and still feel like an adolescent, it’s probably because you still are”.
Once again, bullshit! So because I’m 35 and single I haven’t, “manned UP”. C’mon, having a family isn’t for everyone. And simply because someone isn’t a family man or woman doesn’t mean they don’t have their shit together. There are plenty of people nowadays that have chosen to focus on career in the early part of their lives rather than having families and I’ll tell ya — it takes plenty of, “manning up”, to go out and get your own education and career and being successful at the same time.
Great article. I have one thing to note about your stylistics.
“You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood- family.”
Your use of a dash to offset family from the rest of the sentence confuses the meaning of the sentence. It blends the words “adulthood” and “family” into a bizarre compound word. A better punctuation mark to use would have been a colon.
“You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood: family.”
It would have also been acceptable to capitalize ‘family’ to emphasize its importance in the sentence.
“You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood: Family.”
I believe that part of being a Man is being able to communicate effectively and clearly in any format, be it voice mail, email or text message. I don’t mean that you should be able to write like a prize-winning novelist, just that people can easily figure out what you are saying. “The Elements of Style” by Strunk and White and the “The Art of Readable Writing/Plain Talk” series by Rudolf Flesch are both excellent resources to learn about effective communication.
Perhaps you should do an article on the subject.
Im 20 now and so far i had only one serious relationship. Which was a disaster pretty much. I prefer hangin out. No commitment= no problems.
Must have something to do with new generation, heh.
I think your blog brings up valid points. However, I believe in order to be with someone you need to be certain of your self. It’s not about whether you’re committed or not, it’s about “knowing who you are” and being able to love someone as much as you love yourself. If one can do that–then being committed is no longer a question. Dating one-on-one definitely allows people to really get to know each other. Going on group dates can actually hinder a relationship if that is the only social activities you do together. You’ll really never know how you interact as a couple. So… yes boys! Man-up and put your foot in the door of the dating world!
As a Man With Many Female Friends and a 32 year old Returning College Student, I am living many sides of this issue.
I’m not married, never have been. I do want to get married (once) and have kids. I’m fine with commitment, even with a 3 years of law school staring me in the face. However, I’ve reached a few breaking points:
I love my female friends. I’ve known some of them for over a decade. They were the first to return to me after the Problems Of My 20s finally stopped.
Overall, they’re great. There’s never been any love interest between myself and these ladies, although there is one great exception (tip: never date or fall for a modern dancer-choreographer), and I’m happy when they find great guys. However, the bar for women to become my friends is now extremely high. Most applications are rejected.
I don’t hate women, having close to a dozen close to somewhat-close female friends kinda proves that. What I need, and what I’m happily finding, is male friends (lost pretty much all the old ones during my 20s problems). I recently realized that I am happier and have more success with women when I have more male friends, even gay ones. I don’t know or care about why this is, it just is.
So now, if I’m not interested in a woman romantically or sexually or the connection isn’t beneficial in another way (financially, academically, etc.) then odds are I’m moving on. I’m more likely to make new female friends if they’re already married or in a relationship but no new single women.
Being 32 and in college with no career yet makes me somewhat undesirable for women my age. I understand and accept this, for the most part. So I’ve allowed myself to date younger women. I’m surrounded by them every day and we’re in a similar place in life. I won’t even think marriage until my career starts and that won’t be for 3 years at least and they’re in the same boat. We share the experience of being poor students, with the demands and stresses of college and part-time jobs, not careers, families and mortgages.
Unfortunately, that’s where the similarities stop. I have no problem asking a woman out for coffee but for some of them it’s like getting into the mafia: If you’re not already in their group, forget it. Many of them, but not all, seem to prefer the incestuous merry-go-round of the eight guys in their group, most of whom they’ve known since middle school or guys who their friends bring into the group.
That’s fine for adolescents but this is adulthood. I thought a hallmark of emerging maturity is realizing that dating outside of your circle of friends causes less stupid drama and helps preserve friendships. Maybe it’s just me but my friendships with my girls have been much easier and deeper because we’ve never shared DNA. Bonus: I get to have actual no-strings sexual flings with other women without worrying about losing a great friend.
A final word to young guys who might prefer the “group thing” over dating: Keeping your romantic and sexual life separate from your friends gives you much more privacy and control over it. Nothing, I mean NOTHING is more annoying than when your female friends are all up in your romantic or sexual business.
Dating is dying because it is an archaic social institution based on the objectification of both men and women in the interest of fulfilling genetic priorities. Back when the physical relationship was more important than the mental/emotional one, it made sense to spend time and effort pursuing romantic interests based on blind attraction and initial impressions.
If anything, generation Y is responding to our increased emphasis on the social part of a relationship coupled with the accelerating overpopulation of the planet. People don’t need to get hitched at age sixteen so they can pump out children, anymore, and most of us are looking for partners. It only makes good sense for a teen to pursue someone he/she is already friends with, so “hanging out” is a better path to finding love. It reflects the times.
If you really think that we should be clinging to old systems and that change is negative, we can always go back to arranged marriage.