Stop Hanging Out With Women and Start Dating Them

Jonathan-

“Damn” is a really mild curse I think. It seems like he’s using “just do it, damn it” as the site’s motto. “Just do it, darn it” wouldn’t have quite the same effect.

I know Brett, and you would be hard pressed to find a more clean living, clean talking man.

I like to think I’m pretty uncompetent with the opposite sex, but interestingly enough, I’m in a current relationship.

Its’ not that I’m incompetent with women in general, just when it comes to dating. I have numerous friends who are girls and I like to hang out with them often. The way I worked up until my relationship was that I liked several of my girl ‘friends’ but tried to keep this secret. One of the girl ‘friends’ I have has a best friend who I liked, but rarely got to hang out. After some time, I decided to take initiative and ask her out, but everytime I arranged something with her and other people(to test the ground), she always came up with excuses. I thought she was avoiding me, but then I found out that one of my friends had told her I liked her, and that she liked me in reverse.

Sadly, she took the initiative and sent me a text message stating this. In response, I arranged something the next day. I guess it was kind of reciprocal.

I don’t see our relationship at all attempting to form a family, but maybe that is just because I’m still naive and in high school.

Jon-
Even though you you’re only in high school, doesn’t make dating any less important. I’d advise you not to get too serious with anyone while you’re still young, but go on as many dates as you can. And by date I mean, you and girl together alone on a planned event. No groups. It’s just good practice for when you’re older and are ready to get more serious with woman. By dating frequently, you’ll know how to relate to women better and you’ll also have a good idea of what you like and don’t like in a potential mate.

Good luck!

Brett,
I agree that in modern times those words do not come across as being vulgar like many years ago. I will disagree about them being tame curse words. The spiritual context and origins of the words make them not something to be used lightly. But enough of that rabbit trail…

I do like the writing on here so far though. Now that I’ve started to think about manliness in regards to religion and beliefs, I am curious as to your viewpoint and whether you consider belief in such things as traits of being a man.

@Jonathan-
I’m glad you brought up spirituality and religion in regards to manliness. I do think think spirituality is an important part of manliness. Great men from the past stressed the importance of having a spiritual life. I have some post ideas peculating in my head at the moment about this topic, so check back soon!

@Paul
I’m glad to have a Scotsman among us. Perhaps you can share the ways of the rough knuckle football hooligan.

The Art of Manliness is all about manning you up. If it takes a punch in the face to get your attention, we’ll do it.

Hi everyone,

I think that this was largely worthwhile (and very interesting and informative) reading. Although I’m a COMPLETE non-dater (for various scientific reasons beyond the scope of this article that I don’t care to get into great detail about), I do whole-heartedly agree with “Starting a family forces you to man up” (even though I obviously have NO DESIRE to do so, but I COMPLETELY respect anyone/everyone who does). By the way, I’m currently 34 years old. I’ve been told MANY times throughout my life (and I’ve also had this written in my junior and high school yearbooks by some male and female friends) that I’d make a great father and have great kids and be a great husband to a great lady someday. Although it’s obviously meant as a compliment to me, I do kind of take some offense to such remarks. They just automatically ASSUME that I MUST, OF COURSE, have the SAME wants/needs/desires/etc. as THEY (and MOST people) DO that I OBVIOUSLY DON’T. To me, it just seems plain rude to “judge”, let alone, “size up”, ANYONE … PERIOD. I’ve always felt it’s better to not assume anything about anyone in any/all regard(s).

I’ve had MANY people over the years question me on why I’m not married, married with any child(ren), have a steady girlfriend, or even bother to date. Really, I don’t at all mind people asking me such things, as I’m VERY honest and forthright in my remarks/answers/explanations/etc. What I DO NOT appreciate/respect is when people assume that I MUST be gay and/or there’s something “wrong” with me. I’m just a LOT different from MOST other people, that’s all — plain and simple. REGARDLESS of what I say to these people and how civil and polite I am, they end up being HIGHLY irate, hostile and VERY mean-spirited to me. They feel this “need” to “put me down”, embarass me, attract a LOT of negative attention to me (and get others involved in it as well — much like a chain reaction). Although none of that really bothers me at all (depsite me pointing this out), I do think that that is TOTALLY unncessary, as I don’t engage anyone who’s different from me in such ways. To be fair, I’ve had a lot people offer a LOT of positive encouragement/reinforcement in wanting to see me date, marry, raise a family, etc., and I think they have good intentions/reasons towards me in wanting me to do so. However, I’ve also met those who’ve stated that they’re automatically “better” and/or “more important” than me, since they can handle more responsibility than I can. That’s not completely fair, true nor accurate. Yes, perhaps they CAN handle more responsibility than me; perhaps they CAN’T. Perhaps I’d make a great husband and father; perhaps I’d make the worst. It’s really irrelevant either way. To me, the question is just simply whether I’d want to. I don’t see myself as being any more/less of a man/person in any sense. All it comes down to is the fact that those who’ve married, raisied children, etc. are pursuing what THEY want for THEMSELVES; I’m pursuing what I want for MYSELF. Irregardless, I wish EVERYONE well in their decisions. I’ve even been considered “selfish” and “evil”, or even “taking the easy way out” in my chosen solitary existence. (Believe me, being alone has its’ advantages/disadvantages much like dating, marriage, raising a family, etc. has its’ own. It all depends on how an individual weighs out the pros and cons of each for himself/herself, that’s all.) I’m fine with myself the way I am and I function quite well the way I am.

If people don’t realize/appreciate/respect that, then that’s THEIR problem, NOT mine. NO ONE is any better or worse than the next person. Everyone is different and unique in their own special way(s). We all must live our lives according to how WE deem fit and appropriate. NO ONE has the right to force ANYTHING on ANYONE. To me, it seems quite evident that this whole dating thing is so utterly forced down people’s throats, as society’s largely been, is, and will probably ALWAYS be this way. It’s one thing to offer suggestions, advice and the like; it’s another to just simply flat out tell people how they MUST live THEIR lives, OR ELSE. Perhaps us non-daters are just a representation of how much wider and more varied the universe actually is than previously thought.

I apologize in advance for writing so much (and using captial letters in various places — just for added emphasis), but I felt the need to get this out in the open. Perhaps it all just boils down to a little extra “food for thought”.

All the best,

— Ken

Hey Guys!

Please don’t feel violated…I kind of feel as though I’m stepping into a “man’s club”…but, just a few notes:

As a woman involved in a committed relationship which doesn’t have any hint of marriage in the near or distant future:

I feel that hanging out with girls could be just the same as ‘dating’ them…it’s just formatted to fit our times. or, sometimes, hanging out may lead to dating more seriously along the line…(a.k.a. going steady)

I really don’t feel as though non-dating is a sign of non-committment at all…I personally feel as though it’s a lot more realistic for us ‘youngsters’ in this day and age…just take a look at marriage/divorce rates. Also, when looking at birth rates (especially those out of wedlock), it’s obvious (to me, anyway) that ppl. don’t yield the same social constraints to have a traditional family as those living perhaps 50 or so years ago.

Hanging out is a way to actually get to know the woman/man you’re dating. It gives you an opportunity to determine if you even want to ‘date’ that person or continue a friendship. I think dating viewed in it’s context 50 years ago would leave most women today feeling as though they were being prepped for a nightmarish journey into disillusionment. Explanation: those who ‘dated’, would traditionally wear their beau’s “letter” (sports jackets…jock/cheerleader types or something to that effect), then get engaged (many tittering girlfriends coaching a girl on how to handle her ‘man’, etc), have a wedding/get married (note the conotations of each), have kids, buy a house, continue (possibly unhappily) or divorce.

this synopsis is very tongue in cheek and a broad generaliztion…i don’t mean to infer that everyone follow’s this path, but even as a 30 yr old in the 21st century, i still feel EXTREMELY pressured to settle down and have kids…even though i don’t want to, i sometimes find myself musing about it after some 40 yr old tells me, “oh, your clock will kick in and you’ll want kids…just you wait!”….

AHHHGGGGHHHH!!!!! i really don’t want kids…i love them (if they belong to someone else). i am “finding myself”…but i don’t think that’s a bad thing…(i’m a borderline GenXer/Y).

Ultimately…this little blurb is encouragement to y’all to continue “hanging out” with girls. only date them if both of you really want to. oh, and dating doesn’t need to lead to marriage or otherwise (to any girl who is honest with herself)…

oh, also, if a girl tells you that she doesn’t mind being casual while dating…be cautious…could come back to haunt you….as with all men, women all have different views of relationships…some actually are okay with both of you hanging out with other guys/girls…but many aren’t and would be heartbroken and point to “cheating” if you took her literally… just a tip:)

thanks for your ears! keep hanging out!
-sarah

@ Ken- wow! I think that’s the longest comment I’ve ever seen. Thanks for taking the time write it. You make good points and I respect your opinion. I know a lot of single people who have devoted themselves to a higher cause than themselves. Single people have a lot to offer society that people married with family can’t offer. They often have more time and more resources to devote to betting their communities. But I think the problem today is that people are staying single just so they can indulge themselves. It’s individualism taken to the extreme.

@ Sarah- Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I don’t have a problem with “hanging out.” I encourage it. The problem, and I think moi, nailed it on the head, is that young people get stuck in hang out mode. They use it as an excuse to not take things to the next level.

@moi- Thanks for your comment. I agree with you 100%

@shoshi:

Thanks for your comments. It’s always nice to get a woman’s perspective on dating. My wife loves it when I surprise her with flowers. They don’t cost much, but it makes her day.

Great article. Too many wussies out there just use online dating sites, myspace, and facebook, and think they’re going to find the perfect girl from personal ads. The hottest women out there aren’t even on the internet. They’re usually out doing stuff. So men, it’s time to get out and go to a gym, the mall, parks, art museums. Get the courage to be a man and confront a woman. What do you have to lose? If she says no, just be a gentleman and walk away. Women are attracted to confidence.

This is all well and good, however, I disagree with your 4th point under Resurrect Dating:
“It’s no big deal if she says no. Think about it. You’re no worse off getting rejected than you were before you asked.”

No worse off is a very bad characterization. I have very few female friends. The ones I have, I do not feel I can afford to lose. If I were to ask one out, and were to recieve an affirmative answer, I would be a very happy camper (not sure where that phrase came from.) If, on the other hand, I were to receive a negative answer, I have a feeling that being in that person’s presence in the future would, in and of itself, cause an awkward situation.

I’m not sure where I’m going with this, though. I’ve never had the nerve to ask and see what would happen. (Yes, sadly, /never/.)

@Bob Dole:

That’s a pretty cynical and selfish view. Children can bring men some of their greatest joys. It’s how we can make sure a part of use keeps going even after we’re worm food.

A refreshing read. I agree on all points. In my early (college) years I didn’t man up enough and always tried to engineer dates. I was prone to making ridiculous romantic gestures and trying to come up with complicated schemes to make an impression. I tried to befriend girls and upgrade them to dates by stealth. None of it worked and I went dateless. When I was in school I thought I needed a car to get a date. When I had a car I thought I needed my own place. When I had my own place I ran clean out of excuses.

Finally I worked out that girls (especially in your early twenties) don’t care about what car you drive, where you live or anything like that. They’re smart enough to know that if you’re educated and hard working, chances are you’ll get all that stuff. What they want is a decisive, confident guy who knows what he wants and isn’t scared of hanging it all out and taking the initiative to ask them out. Once I just started asking girls out they actually started saying yes.

A good friend of mine really showed me the way by example. He would always walk up the best looking girl in the room and start talking to her politely. He never tried any sleazy pick up lines or try and get them drunk or anything. He was the most polite guy I have ever known, always opening doors, offering jackets and all that. To the cynical types snickering into their beers, he was a dweeb and a try hard. He certainly got knock backs and rejections, I personally saw many of them. To the girls though, he was a real man. Most of the time they were flattered and taken aback by his directness. Now he has the hottest girlfriend you ever saw, who is smart, beautiful, charming and totally devoted to him. I think that’s worth a little mockery from your (immature) friends. It’s all about manning up and learning that movie plots only work in movies.

Alessandro-

You make an excellent point. “Dating” doesn’t connote the same things that it once did and has become a umbrella term for everything from frivolous hanging out to serious relationships. Dating should absolutely be as you described it-a chance to see if a person would make a compatible marriage partner or not. I think “courtship” as a term just isn’t as familiar today and thus “Stop Hanging Out and Start Courting” didn’t sound quite right.

I think you underestimate the value of groups to help protect women. In this day and age, women often don’t have the bonds of family or neighborhood to keep them safe and secure. Consequently, they only date members of the tribe–people who are friends of friends, and are thus pre-selected. I recall a woman scoffing when a NYC cop asked her out to dinner after they met in an elevator. As she explained, you hook up with people you already know.

People “date” plenty , but it is typically after they have met people in a group environment and have spent some serious time with them. Though random pick-ups do occur often enough! People can tell that they have something in common with one another by their dress, decorum, or even the look in their eyes. Certain neighborhoods even generate their own forms of community.

“Unfortunately, I seem to run into a lot of women that didn’t grow up in Southern California or something and are confused that I can ask them out on a date after only knowing them a short time (and maybe only meeting them once). I tell them that something about their personality sparked my interest and I’m asking them out to root that out and find out if anything is really there, but they are turned off. More than once, I’ve heard, “How can you even like me already? You barely know me?””

To me that seems a very sensible attitude. I think it’s wonderful that young people hang out in groups. There’s not enough community in this country as it is.

As for dating being a prelude to marriage–sure it can be, but would a “real man” let marriage interfere with him “finding himself” or “developing his passion?” I think not. Sad to say, many great achievers have neglected their families, but often that is something that “real men” have often had to do throughout history.

Max has an excellent point- a woman (and a courteous date) must keep her safety in mind; groups and crowds are an effective way to keep oneself safe.

When approaching a woman romantically a thoughtful man will try to view himself from her vantage point. If she barely knows him then he would do well to remember that this woman has every reason to be suspicious or scared of him and and he should not pressure her or take advantage of her politeness.

And on women turning dates down- A ‘no’ answer isn’t a bad thing at all, especially when you consider how bad a unwilling ‘yes’ can be. I’ve had more than one date that I wish had turned me down upfront. In high school, for a school dance my date didn’t want to go with me, accepted my invitation out of politeness, and was sullen and unresponsive the whole evening. If the answer had been ‘no’ at the start then I would have been free to find someone else to go with, and we both could have avoided a singularly unpleasant evening.

I agree with the part about people being afraid to commit. A good long term relation is awesome and really rewarding. However I don’t believe that starting a family forces you to be a man. I know too many relationships that ended because the guy never grew up at all, so I find that logic flawed. Sadly many of those relationships had children in them, so the kids get to deal with a break up. Bad times.

I find a lot of these articles written from an “alpha” personality point of view. The advice here is great for them, but for others… it’s going to be different. Rejection hits many people differently. “It’s no big deal if she says no” is water off a duck’s back for some but others take it badly and are far less cavalier about it.

That siad, there’s a lot of good information here.

Another latecomer, found this after just having some inquisitive thoughts on the current dating scene. I thought this article had a few great points, especially the Facebook comment. So true and yet so painful to face. Not to mention of course sites like Facebook and Myspace have not only distilled the dating scene, but our social interaction as well. As a bizarre experiment, I’m going to cancel my Myspace account, and just see how many people start calling me instead of leaving me comments and messages. A test of true friendship.

I have to disagree with the idea that the purpose of dating is to find a woman to start a family with. I personally have no intentions of doing so. In fact, now that I’m 29, I’ve come to realize that the longer you go without kids, the more you realize how little you need them. Times are different, there’s no need to leave a legacy anymore. Making meaningul contributions to society does not mean functioning as a brood mare for the state. Not to mention the multiple family men who look at me, their spirits broken, and tell me how important it is to NOT get married and have kids. Or at least to wait for as long as possible. Maybe marriage and kids was a great thing decades ago, but I really don’t see it. My parents are still very happy after 20 years, but when I look around the office and talk to these poor guys in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, I count my lucky stars I’m not hitched. Whether broken by an unhappy marriage or worse yet, a financially-crippling divorce, it just seems like getting married is the last thing I would want to do.

Besides, what is marriage but a government contract forcing you, under penalty of having to deal with lawyers, to stay with someone, even if you don’t love them? Personally, I think that’s why there’s such a high number of unhappy marriages. When you have a binding contract to stay with someone, why love them?

What’s wrong with just loving a woman and staying committed to her without marriage? I have an aunt and uncle who have been together since the early 70s and never got married. Of course, they’re a couple of traveling hippies, so maybe bucking the marriage convention of the establisment is just part of their whole philosophy, but still. They’re perfectly happy just being together.

But of course, maybe I’m just talking out of my rear end because I’m single and haven’t dated in a VERY long time. I’m sure if I follow some of the pointers outlined in this article I’ll run into a woman who might turn me around on the whole marriage prospect. My problem is that lately the women I’ve met have run into two extremes:

First are the women who are about as interesting as watching paint dry. I might be too picky, but it takes more than looks to spark my interest. I’m curious about women. I like to ask questions, get to know their ambitions, their interests, what they think about certain issues. Especially their artistic side, like what music and movies they’re into. And I’m usually answered with blank expressions and monosyllabic responses. Trying to initiate an interesting or even time-killing conversation with them is a challenge in of itself, never mind getting to the “asking them out on a date” part. Shoot, that’s become the easy part! And by the way, would it kill them to smile occasionally?

Then on the polar opposite are the “ME! ME! ME!” gals. Usually the one who almost all the guys in the group have “hooked up” with at least once, they never shut up about their most beloved topic: themselves. What they think about so-and-so, who they like, who they don’t like, their issues, their classes, their friends. And gods forbid they get some liquor in them. Normally I don’t mind a woman who’s willing to share her views on any variety of topics, but I’m sorry, I couldn’t care less about who left you a nasty message on your Friendster page, what that b*tch behind you in your Thursday morning class said about you, or who you slept with at the party last Saturday.

Personality is more important to me than anything when it comes to dating, and unfortunately, I’m still looking for the woman who has one.

Great article. I have one thing to note about your stylistics.

“You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood- family.”

Your use of a dash to offset family from the rest of the sentence confuses the meaning of the sentence. It blends the words “adulthood” and “family” into a bizarre compound word. A better punctuation mark to use would have been a colon.

“You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood: family.”

It would have also been acceptable to capitalize ‘family’ to emphasize its importance in the sentence.

“You haven’t taken the next step into adulthood: Family.”

I believe that part of being a Man is being able to communicate effectively and clearly in any format, be it voice mail, email or text message. I don’t mean that you should be able to write like a prize-winning novelist, just that people can easily figure out what you are saying. “The Elements of Style” by Strunk and White and the “The Art of Readable Writing/Plain Talk” series by Rudolf Flesch are both excellent resources to learn about effective communication.

Perhaps you should do an article on the subject.

I think your blog brings up valid points. However, I believe in order to be with someone you need to be certain of your self. It’s not about whether you’re committed or not, it’s about “knowing who you are” and being able to love someone as much as you love yourself. If one can do that–then being committed is no longer a question. Dating one-on-one definitely allows people to really get to know each other. Going on group dates can actually hinder a relationship if that is the only social activities you do together. You’ll really never know how you interact as a couple. So… yes boys! Man-up and put your foot in the door of the dating world!

Dating is dying because it is an archaic social institution based on the objectification of both men and women in the interest of fulfilling genetic priorities. Back when the physical relationship was more important than the mental/emotional one, it made sense to spend time and effort pursuing romantic interests based on blind attraction and initial impressions.

If anything, generation Y is responding to our increased emphasis on the social part of a relationship coupled with the accelerating overpopulation of the planet. People don’t need to get hitched at age sixteen so they can pump out children, anymore, and most of us are looking for partners. It only makes good sense for a teen to pursue someone he/she is already friends with, so “hanging out” is a better path to finding love. It reflects the times.

If you really think that we should be clinging to old systems and that change is negative, we can always go back to arranged marriage.

@Andrew

Gotta disagree with you on a couple of points. No, the past is 10X better than the present because of the simplicity of how the dating scene used to be: Man meets woman. Attraction ensues. They exchange phone numbers. They arrange a date. They date, fall in love, get married, have kids.

Now it’s something like this: Man meets woman. He’s likes her, she doesn’t like anyone but herself. She says “Let’s just be friends” because she watches way too much Sex and the City and The Hills, and thinks dating is “like sooo old-school.” He’s a Gen-Y douche who’s self-esteem has been crippled by a lack of manliness brought on by an overabundance of PC-garbage and emo so he simply agrees to just “hang out” with her. She screws any guy who gets her drunk enough, he spanks it to Jessica Alba every night, using his own tears as lubricant.

Last time a girl tried to do the “I just wanna be friends” thing with me, I took my Dad’s advice and told her point blank, “If I wanted a friend, I’d go to a bar and sit next to a drunk.” Her jaw dropped to the floor, I walked away with the biggest shit-eating grin ever. I wound up in a great relationship with a much hotter friend of hers for 2 years while she’s still trolling the bars, not quite sure on who’s bed she’ll wake up. But whoever it is, it’s not gonna be one of her “friends” that she’s just “hanging out with.”

“Marriage doesn’t mean an end to your personal progression. It just means you get to take on life with a best friend and lover by your side. Which makes the journey much more fun.”

As someone in a serious relationship, I find that the hassle of including her on my journey an impediment to much that I would like to do (backpack through *). Someone to take on your journey may seem appealing to some, but part of a good journey is the wide ranging variety of people you meet, in situations that may not be appealing to the more delicate sensibilities of the fairer sex. (Sounds chauvinistic, but I’ve had many a night ruined because my GF is not able or willing to participate/journey/whatever)

@Wrathbone:

Just because you watched a girl that you hard a hard on for sleep around with tons of men does not make every woman that way. I’ve been in numerous relationships that started by hanging out, and moved into stable monogamous relationships.

I don’t see how the contrived ritual of traditional dating is in any way more superior than the lawless dating world we live in today. We now have more room for innovation, and women were sleeping around in bars well before the decline of traditional dating.

“Here’s the deal. Starting a family forces you to man up. A family is a responsibility. Responsibility breeds character. Character makes men.”

I agree with this, but I does raise an issue. Don’t you think that a Man who is not ready for marriage or for having a family can cause a lot of people a lot of trouble by getting involved too early? I am talking about divorce, bad marriages, etc. These are often the result of people who didn’t know what they were getting into.

It’s really frustrating when a guy stares at you every chance he gets then looks away really fast. Then walks past you about a billion times. You send signals, smile….blah blah blah…Nothing ever happens. Your friends all see it so it’s not your imagination. It’s not that he “isn’t that into you.” What’s even more frustrating is when you are dealing with people in their mid 20’s and 30’s doing this. C’mon guys! Man up. high school ended a while ago. Just because I want equal pay for equal work and the opportunity to do a job I am capable of doing that was traditionally a mans job does not mean I want to actually be a man. I love men and I like being a woman and I want to feel like a woman. And there is nothing more flattering than a man asking me out. There’s nothing that earns respect and admiration more than opening a door or car door for a lady…and OMG paying for dinner!!

Thanks for this site. It’s much needed!

thanks for helping me summon the courage to do this. i feel as if i’m old fashioned and would much rather date than just hook up. I’ve had a few one night stands but I never really got anything out of it. I guess I wad really looking for a connection, something lasting.

One night stands are just as cheap as rand.

And yeah, I used to think that I had to do something extraordinary to get a date too, but now I just realize that I’ve got it all- I might be 19 and in college, but I know where I’m going with my life, what my ambitions are…and yeah I think I’ve found myself before I hit the dreaded 20.

I have to say, I really enjoyed reading this article. I am currently 12 years old, and in year 7.i Have fallen in love with a year 9. There is a visible age gap, however me and her are good friends, But i do want to take that friendship further. But i am a coward when it comes to this, proboably i’ve been single most my life.
I just do NOT want to lose her as a friend, if she says no. We say stuff like “I love you” But thats only as a joke. She does to all her good friends. I really want to ask her out, though. Its eating away at me, Because i really dont know what to do. Take the risk, Or not?
I cannot mak my mind up. All i know is that i truly love her, and id rather keep her as a friend rather than lose her over one question.
Thank you for reading this, and i hope that someone here will be able to help me.

@Alan-

I know you might feel like you have strong feelings for your lady friend, but I would recommend you not start dating at such a young age. As you read in this post, dating is really about looking for a potential marriage partner. At 12 years old, you really shouldn’t be thinking about getting hitched yet. Now is the time to enjoy being a kid and being friends with girls. Guy/girl friendships are really fulfilling. Going out might ruin that friendship. So save the dating business until high school and, ideally, college.

Willie Hewes up there hit it right on the head. It’s ignorant to look at a big group of 20 somethings and assume none of them are hooking up with each other. I’m 26 and since the end of HS it’s all been the same; you have your crews of friends and these crews of friends all hookup within their own crew. No one actually goes out on “dates”. It’s 2008, not 1958. Dates are just a waste of time. Hanging out anyways, be it two people, three, or 15, is just the same without all the formality. Most people would prefer to be sexually compatible with someone before they decide to commit. All committed relationships I know of and have been in myself started out as fuck buddies / friends with benefits / an open relationship first.

Amen!

Why does it have to be a choice between hanging out and dating? I always thought of hanging out as part of the process: You meet lots of people and become friends. You hang out with your friends in groups and get to know them. After getting to know a person as a friend you start going on dates which can then lead to marriage.

I think getting to know someone as a friend first is important. In friendship there’s not the pressure to impress that there is in a one-on-one relationship which can skew the way people portray themselves (knowingly or unknowingly) and make it difficult to really get to know someone.

Willie Hewes understands how it works today. This is an obvious generational divide. No one in today’s “Generation Yâ€? (80s/90s babies) go on formal dates. You save that for when you’re actually in a committed relationship (dating). Everything up until commitment is just hanging out. You go from there. There is no more of this “let’s go to dinner than wonder if this is the right # date to sleep with each otherâ€? bullshit. Everyone just chills with the person they’re interested in (with other friends sometimes). What happens, happens. Now that I think about it none of my boys go on what you would consider former dates with any chicks unless they’re already dating them (in a committed relationship). No one calls going out for drinks with a chick you barely know or are just getting to know a “dateâ€?. It’s just hanging out or chilling.

The one mentioning facebook is SO true. My guy friends keep writing on my facebook wall and leaving me little comments- and I swear, if I get another crush alert I will go postal. If only I could muster the courage to send this to any of my male friends. But I agree with this article 100%.

i completely agree with this post. i hate that every boy i’m attracted to is always waiting on me to make the first move! just because i’m ‘intimidating’ or attractive, they go completely yellow and wuss out. men, follow this post’s advice. women want you to make the first move, or at least women like me do.

i agreed with brett on almost everything on this topic. im a freshman in hs and i think a good percentage of guys my age dont see girls as ppl to have a relationship with and only as playthings to hook up with and as a result girls think that to meet guys they to be more willing to hook up. im not saying this guys are bad ppl but someone needs to teach them to respect girls and the social standards of my generation arent doing that. srry about the bad grammar and run on sentences but im using a psp

Also, with a lot of women and girls drooling over attractive, successful men and boys they see in the media these days, it’s even getting tougher for the average man or boy to ask them out because they’re always thinking that these women and girls would rather go out with these handsome men-talk about being superficial.

In addition to that, the issue of women being raped, harassed, and/or killed makes it harder to date. Everytime a man initiates everything with a woman, from the first approach to the first date, he is always being slapped with a rape, murder, or sexual harassment lawsuit and ending up in prison. So, guys, if you are in the presence of a woman or girl you like, wait for her to make the first move. If you think about approaching the woman or girl you see and initiating everything, please have one or more females you know and trust very well around so that way you don’t get into trouble. Don’t do it alone or with one or more other guys around. No matter what, they will always get scared, run away, dial the police, turn you down and/or say no, especially if they are much smaller and/or slimmer than you are.

I wholeheartedly agree with your blog entry above. I was that 30 year old adolescent you described and now that I have finally manned up with a wife and two kids, I can clearly see that I would have been much better off if I had manned up much earlier in life. There’s nothing out there to wait for and the pickings just keep getting slimmer with each passing year. Marriage and fatherhood has not been a cake walk and has been harder and more challenging that I ever imagined, but it still beats the endless, pointless searching of singlehood.

I don’t know what happened to the institution of dating, but it sure did die out. Part of the problem might be that it seems almost universal that any couple that has been going out longer than 2 dates is involved in an exclusive sexual long-term relationship. It’s like people go from meeting to shacking up with nothing in between any more. Maybe if we’d talk together a little before sleeping together we could figure out if we are compatible without it being a 6-12 month process each time.

Lessons from a man who spent too much time being friends with girls and not enough dating.

Having girls that are friends is fine. Actually, since women seem to know more about things we guys are useless on such as clothes and style it is not a bad idea to have a few to bounce ideas off. But, do not and I repeat, do not spend all your leasure time with female friends.

You are a guy. And trust me, if you ever want to be more than “friends” with a girl, spend your non-dating time with guys.

Reason 1. Girls want guy friends for selfish reasons (whether they admit it to themselves or not). We are great at making them feel special and unlike their female friends, we don’t judge them. The icing on the cake is that they can get all this from us and don’t have give anything in return (and you can take that any way you want). By the way, this holds true for you homosexual guys too.

Reason 2. You can have all the guy buddies you want and unless they have issues you are unaware of, they will not be a major problem when you want to date someone. With female friends, you have to worry about balancing time with them (because they will be jealous) and with the new dating girl (who will be jealous of the female friends). EIther way you will be stuck. Ignore the new girl enough and she’ll dump you, or ignore the female friends enough and they’ll turn on you.

Reason 3. Please don’t ever be friends with a girl you like. Although friends can become lovers it never happens if you like them first, they want to be friends,and you do so hoping it will become something else.

Reason 4. Sometimes a girl does like you (parts anyways. your humour, your sensitivity, something but not anything that leads directly to the bedroom). Like guys, some girls are players. They want mr. bad for friday night but then want mr. good to cry to on saturday morning. You don’t have to be mr. bad but please don’t be mr. good. Look, if you got to sit through that Sex and the City movie for a bit of affection then she can kiss you for a bit of attention. This isn’t sexist. I’m not saying she has to perform sex for your time but that doesn’t mean she should be able to use you either. And if you are a Mr. Good, you my friend are being used.

So to all you lads, young and old, dump the female buddies. Call the fellas for a guys night out. And if a girl catches your eye, ask her out on a real date. None of this, going to a movie with the “gang”. That ain’t a date. Don’t ask her friends if she likes you. Go up and as yourself. Be a man. Girls, all girls, like that. And if you are a young lad who gets passed over for being “too nice” don’t be sad. Just remember that she’ll get her’s when she hit’s 30-odd, the bio-clock is ticking, and all the nice guys are gone.

So get off the computer and date.

Reasons to “hang out” instead of asking her on a date:

- you’re not sure if you like her enough to take her out, but are still somewhat interested
- hanging out with a group of friends is more natural
- she gets to see you in a more comfortable atmosphere, with friends
- she gets to see your friends, who presumably are cool, and that works in your favor

But by all means, if you like her enough and want to take her out, then do it.

Could not disagree more with asking her over to your place and cooking dinner for her on the first date. I cannot imagine a creepier thing. Put it this way – if you can find a girl who is willing agree ahead of time to come to your place for a first date, there’s no need to impress her by cooking her dinner.

Keep it simple for the first date. Drinks after work and that’s it. Dinner is usually too much, and can actually be a turn off (“oh, I’ve got this guy already, he wants to buy me dinner and he doesn’t even know me”). That’s another reason why “hanging out” can work. Keep her guessing. (“Weird, he seems like he likes me, but he hasn’t asked me out – he just wants to hang out in a group.”).

Finally, if it’s what you’re after, probably a better chance that she (and everyone) will get drunker when hanging out in a group.

Originally Posted By WilliamAlright, I just need some advice here. For some background, here it is…
I have dated before, unlike most youth my age (17), I date for personality, and not shallow reasons. I just bailed 2 months ago on a relationship due to distance and other factors. This is irrelevant.

There’s a girl I have been close to for about 4 or 5 years now. She’s dated other people, I’ve dated other people, and now I’m comfortable with the idea of dating her. She just got out of a relationship with a total jerk, and due to the specifics of that relationship, she is over him.

I’m simply wondering…Would it jeopardize our friendship to take the steps to dating? When is it late enough after her previous relationship to jump back into another one?

Side note: I’m taking her to a game today, I don’t know if you’d call it a “date”, but yeah.

Is that game a date? Well…

A woman friend of 1.5 yrs once invited me over to her parents place for dinner, even got herself all decked out with make-up, nice clothes, and super styled hair.

And she just wants to be friends.

Just a tiny comment in response to “feminism” making dating confusing for men.
Trust me, it makes it confusing for women, too:

“Will he be insulted in I offer to split the bill, insulted if I don’t?”
“I want to kiss him, will he think I’m too forward if I make the move?”

and the very worst:

“I want to sleep with him, I know that already. He’ll try for it tonight. Will he never call me again if I do it? We both want to sleep with each other…should I say no anyway?”

@Chris –
I was going to say the same thing.

I agree whole-heartedly with this article. I’m a third-year college student (studying music education) who was left early in November (she finally got sick of me being poor and wanting to be a teacher). We had been together for almost 4 years, so it’s been tough. I’ve been hanging out with a girl, and mutual friends, for about a week now and really want to take her on a date. My intention is to get to know her better, not start “going steady”. I mean, I just had my heart ripped out. I don’t need to take a chance on hurting this girl just because I’m lonely.

Anyway, thanks for the straightforward advice. My roommate and I have been taking to heart the things said here as we both try to be Godly men. And any response to this would be greatly appreciated.

I have a problem:

I can only flirt with ugly chicks.

I don’t even mean too. I’m naturally “flirtatious” (in a retarded sort of way) but the only time I can act naturally around a girl is if I have absolutely no interest in them whatsoever.

Girls intimidate me.

I don’t really think of ugly girls as girls, (sorry ugly chicks, ) so I can talk to them.

WTF should I do?

A gentleman is someone who is self aware, socially aware, cultural, musical, artistic, knowledgeable, smart, honest, educated, well mannered, confident, polite, someone aware of when violence is needed, logical and most of all respectful and respected.

We are not taught to think that way anymore. We have bred a world wide culture which thrives on procrastinating, materialism and selfishness. We care more about ourselves than others yet, the person we fear the most is ourselves. We fear our own daemons and our own truths which lead to the lies and fronts we surround ourselves with. Making us incapable of acting logically.

This translates into our sex/dating lives.
Fearful of taking risks, paranoid of what may happen, insecure about ourselves and confused on what action to take.

Facebook, feminism, xbox… it’s all true. You totally nailed it. Love this article. Love this site. While some of the stuff (ex. shaving tips) is clearly just for guys, there are plenty of goodies (ex. virtue of silence) for anyone in need of guidance on making the leap into adulthood. You’ve certainly inspired this woman to “man up” more in the coming year. Bravo.

Hey, forgive the intrusion. If it helps, despite being a girl I do lots of ‘manly’ things; bit of Ju-Jutsu, bit of swordplay, lots of swearing and rugby watching etc. so I won’t femme up the place too much. (But have you considered more floral decoration on the site?)

I really liked this article, and I wasn’t offended by the feminism remark – and I’m proud to say I am a feminist. It was an interesting point, I think that a misunderstanding of feminism by men and women who are just plain mean have made heterosexual interactions a bit trickier.

To be honest, I think young men and women should work on getting comfortable with dating again. If you like someone, do something about it. It’s usually fun, and the biggest risk is a broken heart which contrary to popular belief, isn’t the worst thing in the world- I mean, hyperinflation and malaria have to be worse!

True words Dale. Wish I never had to learn them the hard way but I agree with you 100%. I let my own life go to nothing once for what I believed was the benefit for another. I took the “love thy neighbour” line by heart. Only after getting away from that life did I learn a lesson from someone who taught me that the mistake I made was not loving my neighbour (or partner in this case) but was not following the whole saying. That being “love thy neighbour as you love thy self”. You cannot love others until you love yourself and like you said, you can’t know others until you know yourself. If you don’t know what you have to share or what you want then how can you know who is the woman for you?

i don’t think this article was meant to set social pretenses for anyone – the man (brett, i do believe) who wrote it seems like he was perpetuating an idea that has worked for him and, obviously, many others (as – would the institution of marriage ever have been if humans could not willingly choose to be monogamous creatures happily, legally, and spiritually?).

i’m seventeen years old and still in high school. i have dated a lot in my past (i began dating at a very young age – too young in my opinion now, but everything is clearer in retrospect of course), and have no underlying urge to “play the field” anymore. i’m six months into the best and strongest relationship i have personally ever seen (besides perhaps a childhood friend’s parents, but that is beside the point). i feel lonely without my partner. if i awake in my own bed without him next to me, i feel as if i’m not starting the day out quite right. we are both strong and independent people on our own, but our paths merged – i think that this feeling is the reason that marriage was originally instituted. going to the grocery store, doing laundry, manually washing dishes – it’s all made more pleasurable by his mere presence.

i don’t really know my point, and i’m sorry that i expounded so much.

great article!

theres a tonne of replies so its not likely that many people will see my above statement =P

another problem that i have had and would appreciate advise on is that i generally seem to settle for the “less attractive” chick…

I guess i have a few reasons for this and they seem to include…

i find that normal chicks are generally not up themselves, but recently whilst thinking on my reasoning it seemed harsh and i coudnt help but admit queitly to myself that perhaps the real reason is that im just too damn scared to even think about trying to enter a relationship with a really HOT girl or even (i guess) that perhaps i dont DESERVE one.

perhaps this is why i have the tendancy to go for the less hot of two chicks. i know this sounds really mean and to any women reading this passage i am truly sorry if i have caused you any offence for the hot chicks been kinda up themselves comment.

(seen as i am using the name sum1 i feel no shame in sharing my feelings with a wider range of people as im sure that there are many guys out there that have experienced the exact same problems as i have)

How do i combat this and what is the real reason behind my inconvenient habit?

I actually agree with the majority of the post, BUT the thrust of it “not enough dating!” is rather a strawman.

It’s all very well bemoaning the decline in dating, but the the important first step to securing a date is to impress the girl sufficiently for her to consent – and THIS is the area of the problem; after all, if you have a girl draped over you laughing at each and every pathetic joke you tell then its pretty darn easy to say; “Wanna hook up on Tuesday?”.

Unfortunately, impressing women is a rather complex, hit and miss affair if you are not a natural alpha male; hence the predominant sense of frustration and confusion.

See the wealth of “pick-up” material out there for more on how to achieve the not-alpha-but-want-to-score-reliably.

Rebuttals welcome.

well said Chris

Hey Chris,

Thanks for your comment. Yes you’re reading into my comment, but I find it interesting so I don’t mind.

“First I think if your (not you personally, but any guy) goal is get her in bed in as short as a time possible then the battle is already lost. …if it’s your only goal then unless she’s desperate, drunk, or diseased then you are wasting your time.”

Well, it’s difficult to agree or disagree strongly with this assertion without making large assumptions on the context of your remark. Suffice to say, sleeping with a girl *should* be your no.1 aim early on because it’ll make your life a hell of a lot easier from then on.

But obviously there are levers you need to pull in order to get through the gate, and there are right and wrong ways to pull them, so-to-speak.

“So I guess what I’m saying is that you don’t need to be the funniest guy in the room and have a pocketful of pick-up lines. That’s crap…”

I disagree with your dismissal of being funny or having good “lines”. Yes it’s superficial, but that’s all you have at the outset when meeting someone.

If I use “technology” (i.e. canned routines/lines and so on) I am still exactly the same guy as I would be if I didn’t use technology. It’s just that technology gets me to where I need to be faster and more reliably. If I need to get from A to B – and I can use a bicycle with a puncture and no brakes, or I could use a Porche – I know which one I’m going to choose.

“It works in the movies…”

In my experience movies are the opposite; guy-gets-girl based on his sincere traits rather than applying any kind of intelligence to the process.

I agree with your point re girls scanning for traits and liking sincerity. But you need to look at the broader picture and say “how can I get an opportunity to demonstrate these traits?”. High value girls have 20 guys approaching them every time they go out. Is the guy who says “Hi, I’m a really sincere guy. What’s your name?” going to be more successful, on average, than the guy who opens with a funny remark and an indirect demonstration of value? These girls simply don’t have time to apply a flawless rational sorting algorithm to every guy that comes their way.

“Girls don’t have some sort of radar for the born alpha male.”

OK, I confess I dont know whether its nurture or nature or both (I suspect both), but there are alpha males. And, yes girls do have a radar for it. But I agree that you can improve your alphaness by self improvement, like you say.

I really like your idealistic viewpoint that if you are a good, well-rounded person then you’ll get the girl. Maybe I’m just cynical, but I don’t buy it. I suppose its because for some reason humans place a huge emphasis on presentation; and that’s what most pick up stuff seems to be about – presenting yourself in the best possible way. I agree that much of the pick up stuff is probably of dubious value, but some of it is based on empirical evidence that it’s difficult to argue with.

I agree that “hanging out” is quickly replacing actual “dating”, but I think both are necessary for a good relationship and for reputation. I prefer to use the word “talking to so-and-so” instead of “hanging out with so-and-so”; it seems that today the Y generation usually will be “talking” to a potential girlfriend or boyfriend for a time and then either proceed to “dating” or just stay friends. I think this is very useful in getting to know a girl before you commit to a relationship with her. You don’t want to go ahead and “date” and girl before you really know her just like you don’t want to buy a car before you learn about it. “Talking” usually consists of anywhere from a couple weeks (way too short in my opinion) to 3 or 4 months, and sometimes even longer. You do go out on dates during those months, but you’re still technically just “talking” because you haven’t learned enough about them to decide if you want to start a relationship. If you didn’t know anything about a potential girlfriend or boyfriend, rushed into a relationship, and then you realize that you should never have dated the person, it can horribly ruin your reputation. Keep in mind that when I say “reputation” I don’t mean dating the extra-fine cheerleader so you can be even more popular; I mean your reputation as to how other people perceive you and see what kind of person you are. If you date girls that are known to sleep around or do other frowned upon activities it will reflect on your personality and people may think you are the same way.

Chivalry, Courtship, DATING is dead. Internet, media, society. You name it. The ‘old school’ is pretty much on the outside looking in.

Girls are so wrapped up in BS these days from the lack of MEN, that when they encounter CHIVALRY, their heads explode because they don’t know what to do with it. If the two parties don’t want to sleep with each other immediately, then there is apparently no chance of any real relationship coming from it. Thus elminating the potential for DATING or possible COURTSHIP. WTF?

Of course it doesn’t help when women waste their time with all the LOSERS. So it cuts both ways ladies. If you’re interested in a guy. Do him a favor and meet him halfway. Not all of us are capable of reading your signals and getting all the hints. And start dating MEN and not boys! When you complain, or guys if you hear a girl complain, about why they can’t find a good “man”, tell them: “That’s what happens when you date BOYS”.

No way in hell I change ME. I’m in no rush and can handle being single. I’ve done it all, been around the world, had many ladies, so I’m in no hurry. I was taught from the old school by my father (R.I.P) and other MEN in my family (as well as the WOMEN out there) how it’s done. “Hanging out” and “talking” are cop-outs. If you think otherwise, you’re a moron. However, to each his own.

Dating is what it is. It was never meant to be easy. If it was, none of us would ever be single. The “date” is the time you take to get to know a lady. Lunch, Dinner, Coffee, whatever. A “date” is a damn date. It’s just that. “Dating” is the act of actually getting the hell out there and meeting various men or women and going from there. It’s not “Instant Relationship in a Box”.

That’s the problem today. Hanging out in groups in order to find someone? Are you kidding? I don’t need the drama and I’m not looking for “St. Elmo’s Fire”. Give me a break! Guys wanna increase the number of the girls you know? NETWORK! This is done by MEETING and ASKING the girl out.

Just because the girl shoots you down or ‘just wants to be friends’ isn’t completely a bad thing. If she’s a good girl, you can bet she’ll probably hook you up with one of her friends. Or you have a wingman for when you hit the club or bar scene. It opens up so many doors, you can’t even imagine. OR you can line yourself up with another potential ‘friend with benefits’. Will you two hook up, get together, marry? Who knows? However, you won’t know if you spend your time with the SAME DAMN people in a group or investing time and energy in “hanging out”. Besides, if she is a total b*tch to you when you ask her on a date, how do you think she will be in a relationship?

I can “date” and “f**k*” just the same without any commitments or strings. So your “hang out” theories are of no use to me. For that matter, the majority of the time these “groups” are comprised of like 276375636523 guys and 4 girls. (Don’t try it, I’ve seen it. A LOT.)

You all have fun with “pass the friend”. I’ll just be the sapless ‘old school’ loser getting ready for his ‘lunch date’ with a girl I just met not too long ago. Hmmm, imagine that. I want to get to know her and I DIDN’T have to HANG OUT or sit in a GROUP of people for that to happen? *lol* Does that mean we get together? Nope. I don’t even know if I will even want her as a friend, much less a girlfriend. We may end up a couple, we may hook up, we may not. However, that’s why we’re getting together on a informal “DATE”. Heck, she may not find me as interesting as she may think I am. Goes both ways. *lol* As a bonus, she plays college sports and she’s hot. That means she might have hot friends who play sports as well. *lol*

Does the group thing work? Maybe. I’ve been invited by my buddies new girlfriend to lunch and she informed me a bunch of cute girls will be there. I don’t know any of them. That works for me. Bunch of opportunities there. However, I wonder if I have the same spending time with the same tight knit group of people and possibly developing that ’small town’ mentality. Well, I guess you could be ‘Fez’ to your groups ‘Jackie’. That’s if you like being the second, or THIRD choice. *lol*

How dare I go out, MEET, and be blessed with many female friends (some who have rejected me in the beginning or I have had relations with) who have introduced me to other great women! For that matter, why would I want to spend time learning what kind of girl I want to make my ‘lady’. All the physical relations, the dates, relationships? That’s just dumb!!! I guess I should be miffed that I had the intestinal fortitude to ask her out. NO! I just wanna “hang out” and/or do it in groups no less and sit around and wait for the SAME few girls to like me or become available.

Women, as femisist as they may be, do want/like to be held and treated as such. I’m known to give many of the girlies in my life big bear hugs and lift them up. I’ve had them tell me or I overhear them say to their friends, “it reminds me that I’m a girl” with a smile on their face. Plus, being a man establishes SECURITY and SAFETY with the girl you want to get closer with. You have to make them feel comfortable around you. You CAN do that on a “DATE” with just the two of you. If not, I suggest you get a lawyer. *lol*

However, fellas. It’s this simple: Stop being a b*tch and ask the girl out. You have no one to blame but yourselves.

over past several years ive greatly increased my confidence. But still not close to where i should be. If i know a girl, say from a class, i can make an easy connection and it becomes easy for me to talk/flirt with her.
Now here is the problem: if i see a girl at a coffee shop or some random place, i never have the balls to just talk. im good at STARTING the convo but carrying it on is the hard part.

any tips?

I disagree with this article 100%. I am a 22 year old in college. I am not responsible enough to start a family, nor do I believe I have done enough with my life to not resent any family I do start. I don’t typically go on dates with girls, I would rather hang out and keep it very casual.

It doesn’t send any mixed signals. I let her know I am interested in her, while not being interested in a serious relationship. It accomplishes all my goals I have for the opposite sex(not including girls I am just friends with.) I get sex. I learn what I would like in a girl I am going to have a relationship with. I have fun.

I see no hurry to rush into serious relationships, and I think that mindset is a major reason the divorce rate is astronomical in this country. How are you supposed to know what you want in a lifelong mate when you don’t even know yourself?

I’ll start looking for something serious when I am about 30, until then I will be perfectly content living my life and having fun with the women I meet.

In this article and these comments I have been reading a lot about what women want, according to men. It has all been very enlightening to me, a woman, and has brought me to the conclusion that either A) I have been wholly ignorant of what it is I truly wanted for the last ten years, or B) I am not really a woman.

Guess what, all you manly men–not all of us are looking for the things that you think we are looking for. Not all of us are looking for some guy to sweep us off our feet. Not all of us are looking for someone to size us up like a rack of meat over drinks or dinner and to be assessed for fertility, submissive traits, homemaking skills, and marriageability. Not all of us are looking for some guy to impress us with how ballsy he is for wrangling situations into opportunities for him to prove his prowess, take-charge-ness, or to get just the two of you alone together. Not all of us want the pressure and awkwardness of having to navigate two hours of dinner with a near-stranger, trying desperately to think up enough small talk so you won’t hurt his feelings but so you also won’t also start spilling your life story to someone you wouldn’t even let borrow your car. Not all of us like to feel beholden to a guy just because he paid for dinner and a movie. Not all of us want to watch you perform your little routine of tricks you use to impress a woman, or listen to you trot out your list of topics and stories that you use to show how manly you are. Not all of us want you to convince us to fall for you. Not all of us want to follow the married-by-twenty-five-and-two-kids-by-thirty script that supposedly is the true sign of maturity in this culture. Not all of us feel that we have to be curing cancer either in order to justify our choice to not be married or in a constant rotation of intimate relationships.

It might be shocking and hurt your manly sensibilities, but some of us do want to just HANG OUT. Some of us don’t want to have the constant tension of sizing and being sized up as potential sex or life partners. Some of us want to be your friend. Some of us just want to have fun and to find fun people of both genders to have fun with. Some of us want to see you when you are relaxed and yourself. Some of us want to hear your hopes and your dreams and your struggles. Some of us want you to know that it is safe to say all of that and that you will still be a man and that you won’t be rejected for being honest and that we are cheering for you to succeed in life. Some of us want you to care about us too in the same way and know that it is because you care about us as a person and not just as a means to an end. Some of us want you to listen and actually be interested in our lives and well-being. Some of us actually find that kind of friendship very sexy and can actually fall in love with that. Some of us will even tell you so clearly and without playing games. Some of us can handle it when you say that you are not interested and will continue to still be your friend. Some of us can be very touched when you say you have feelings for us, which have bloomed over months and years of you really knowing us. Some of us can let you down gently and not make you feel like a fool for liking us more or differently than we like you. Some of us will feel safe enough with you that we will have sex with you. Some of us will marry you. Some of us will be able to break it off with you and still wish you the best and still be happy to hang out with you. Some of us just want you to stop holding yourself and us up to some ridiculous standard of what is a man and what is a woman. Some of us want you to find yourself and be happy with yourself so we won’t have to endure twenty years of marriage with you trying to force yourself to feel that this is what you really wanted out of life. Some of us just want you to be honest, fair, forthright, responsible, kind–you know, the stuff every human being should do.

I know…it sounds impossible…but it’s not. I am proof that women who are like this and who want these things really do exist. And I *hate* dating.

This article has a few faulty assumptions:

“It’s great that women can choose to have a career, be a stay-at-home mom, or do both.”

Guess what? It isn’t a choice. I had to support a family by myself, as do most women at some point in their lives. I didn’t have the choice of being a stay-at-home mom.

“Men have all these questions go through their head: Who asks? If I ask, will she think I’m too forward? Who pays for the date? Do we split the bill? All these uncertainties cause men to avoid dating altogether and opt for hanging out with women instead.”

What a “date” is has quite gotten lost. Who pays is not a male-female question; it’s a host-guest question. If a man invites a woman out, he pays — because he is the host. If a woman calls and says, “I have two theater tickets for Saturday night — would you be interested in joining me?” then SHE is the host(ess), and pays (i.e., run out after the phone call and buy the tickets). After the show, he might suggest a nightcap — the HE is again the host.

It’s not all that hard.

Been reading the responses, found a couple that could relate to what I’m dealing with, not totally sure about what to do however. I’ve known this girl for a year and a half now, but we didn’t really start being friends until the beginning of our senior year of highschool. We just graduated. Out of nowhere, and I mean that literally, we were going out to lunch every day during school. Didn’t seem too weird to me, second girl that is a friend, but it felt like a normal friendship. My problem is, or used to be it seems like, that I become really attached to said girls that are friends. I basically took a knife and murdered the first friendship because I couldn’t stand being 100% focused on her. I became very easy to anger, and almost everything set me off. I don’t know why, but it did. Was very depressed for a while, but I started getting over it when another girl suddenly started talking to me out of the blue. I had liked her a while before, but after asking her out and being rejected, we hadn’t talked for a long time. We talked for about 2 weeks while she was on vacation in Hawaii…. Still don’t know why she was talking to me of all people lol. Guessed she might’ve liked me, but I’ve been wrong before. We talked, I flipped sh*t, then we stopped. Became pretty short with everyone, all my friends said I look like I was about ready to kill the next person that looked at me funny. I didn’t like it, but I didn’t care enough to change it.
Sorry, back to this first girl haha. We hang out. A lot. A lot lot. Not in groups, just us. I hold the door open, I pay for dinner, she tries to, but I won’t let her. I don’t feel that she’s using me. We go on bike rides, we go on road trips, we go camping, etc. Is this dating OR WHAT? I was still in my stand-offish mood, and she knew it. She told me a few weeks ago she was this close to breaking the friendship off because she hated being around me when I was angry at the world. I still haven’t figured out if it’s a bad thing or a good thing that I tend to focus 100% on a girl, but it’s had it’s ups and downs. I met this girl’s friend at work, she had a crush on me a few months back, during which I was totally oblivious (because I was focused on my friend). We started talking and out of nowhere we were saying we were going steady. 1 problem, she was pregnant with someone else’s child. Dunno why I didn’t steer clear, the thought of possibly forcing myself to becoming a dad didn’t scare me, which should’ve stopped me dead in my tracks. Well, before we broke up out of nowhere, my friend had noticed that we were getting along much better. I had someone that I felt I was allowed to focus on, and they both loved it in their own ways. I ended up getting with my friend while me and the pregnant one were in a “gray area.” I know it’s cheating, I know me not being in any relationship prior to this is no excuse for my ineptitude, but it didn’t feel bad when I did it. Of course it does now, but we’re not together anymore so I’ve put it behind me. Lo and behold, after we break up, I’m back to being a grouch. I’ve gotten better, but it still comes up every once in a while. Especially when other guys move in on her. I don’t like being jealous or envious of every guy that gets close to her. I hate it. But it’s hard to try and find another girl when every ounce of my attention is given to my friend. I don’t obsess like I used to, but I literally don’t look at other girls. I don’t try not to look at them, they are just unappealing. We’re friends, I’m not trying to push it any further, but I can never tell if we’re friends, friends with benefits, or if it’s going somwhere further. It’s confusing, frustrating, madening, and I’m getting sick of it haha. I love our friendship, but I hate the baggage it seems to bring. Sorry that this is really confusing, my battery is about to die and I’m trying to get it out before I feel it won’t be worth it again haha. Any thoughts would be great. Thanks for taking the time to read

All the responses here have my head spinning with disbelief. In a sense, what a confused ‘dating’ vis-a-vis ‘hanging out’ scene has done is created a lot of false fantasies about what a relationship really is. In reality, for the typical American unit, it’s banal and gets trite within a few short mos or years. There’s no magic here, more than half the couples out there are divorced. It won’t magically get better with time. So the truth is that one simply needs to be upfront and deal with failure and such.

All and all, here’s where the successful American men end up… seeing high class escorts (in legal Canadian cities) for pleasure, flirting with local girls for fun (& passing some time, when not playing b-ball with guy friends), and settling down with a woman from Latin America or Asia-Pacific for companionship and starting a family. Yes, this hypothetical example is the last of the successful men in this country; the others are living lives of quiet desperation in hope that ‘one’s soulmate’ is around the corner at some book reading or rock climbing event.

For me what this comes down to is what Men really want from women is intimacy.
Intimacy as a best Friend this is the start. And a woman saying you’re friends isn’t enough. I imagine friends will not even be brought up; it will be a given. I hope. I never have experienced the progression to the intimacy and the romance but it seems logical. Of course your friends, but more and more friends further and further away from everyone else, secret intimate friends.
Damn, Thats what I want. I never can pull it off; once they see you as a friend your stuck in the woman’s limited idea of what that means.

Friendship is in reality a love, and even as great a love as Eros(romantic love)
CS Lewis.

Also see The Four Loves the top of page 73 pretty much sums up my recent experience. Damn.

Marriage:
Have you seen the legal and social climate for marriage? Seriously?

Dating:
There are two sides to dating. Guys may have to “man up” but women have their path to tread too.

And having started to date again, all I can say is that it’s not just the guys that are the issue. How about some general manners like “thanks for the nice dinner and X” and perhaps a kiss on the cheek. Hey, perhaps even a second date to see if perhaps candidate No. 1 was a little nervous/stiff/out of sorts/ on Date 1?

Most girls, especially Asian girls are waiting for men to ask them out first. So men should do the first move to resurrect the exciting dating experience. By doing so, you can level up your relationship stage from being friends to a romantic lovers.

@RANdomIZED

I don’t understand the whole “hard to get” thing. Either you like someone or you don’t, there’s no “game” about it. I don’t know what grade you’re in, so I can’t tell you exactly how it usually works in your grade. When you’re out of school, you date people to get to know them. You aren’t in a relationship yet, but if things go right eventually you move into one. In that case, you don’t have to hang out with her before you ask her, because the whole process of dating would involve getting-to-know-her-better.

Whatever way, the next thing you should do is tell her that you like her. Wait until you’re alone with her or set it up somehow. Otherwise, it’ll either take a long time or it will never happen.

Right on!
My son is 13, okay a little young to start “dating,” but I hope he catches on…I have been telling him (AND SHOWING HIM) how nice it is to hold doors open for people (especially women and senior citizens), saying, “please” and “thank you” and addressing adults as “sir” for men and “miss” or “ma’am” for women. Just little things like this will get “Gen Y” started in the right direction. I am not sure which “generation” I’m in…I was born in 1962 and the Boomer Generation goes until 1964, I think, but I don’t feel like a Boomer. I like the articles on AoM — very thought provoking and things for me to keep in mind while raising a son who will, I hope, find and date someone special within the next few years!

I’ve been an AoM reader for about three months now so this post was before my time so I just found it, but my god, sometimes you hit the nail right on the fricken head. I am 22 years old and at a point in my life were yes, I am still really just looking for a good time with a nice girl but am in no way closed off the idea of it developing into something more. With that said, I feel I have no fear of commitment.

I was recently faced with the decision to either “hang out” or “date” a girl and I, as part of my eternal quest to become a true man, elected for the date. Now I did the asking over the phone and I was very confident about it, but the interim conversations about where exactly she wanted to go (it was her Birthday so I let her choose) and the the subsequent request for her address happened via text message, and while it was all happening it did not occur to me that this might not be the most manly way to go about this but it was just so damn functional that I did it anyway. In the end the date went off without a hitch and all was well but I still question my use of text messaging.

One last comment, the line about a guy over the age 18 still telling a girl he likes her over Facebook needing to be punched in the face was perhaps the most elegantly written phrase I have read on this blog to date. Good work and great stuff!

I especially like #4. Rejection. Nobody likes it. However, I’m old fashioned, and I believe wholeheartedly that there is someone for everybody. As such, the whole dating scene is the process of finding that one. If a woman declines to go on a date with a man, it is simply one less woman that a man has to “sort through” on his quest to find the love of his life. Some may see this as over simplifying things, but I really don’t see it as such. Just imagine the joy when you find your soul mate!

Another great article Brett!
On the subject of dating and feminism – There can be plenty of confusion when it comes to dating these days. A few years ago I went out on a first date with a pretty woman that had the “career girl” attitude. Before the night was over, I was left feeling confused. When we arrived at the restaurant, she chastised me for opening the door for her and told me never to did that again. When we sat down, I almost excused myself to restroom and ditched her. However, I am too much of a gentleman for that! All during the dinner she talked about herself and her work. She even made a few statements that she did not need a man in her life and was perfectly capable of taking care of herself. I thought I would test things and see if she was willing to go “dutch” when the bill arrived even though I had every intention of picking up the tab. She broke into this long sob story about how she is a single mom and struggling and her ex only pays $500.00 a month in child support. I kept thinking about her comments about not needing men. Needless to say, I deleted here number off my mobile that night and never saw her again.

Great article. I can personally testify to the benefits of dating. During my second year of college, and before I was married, I decided that I was ready for a serious relationship, and that I was tired of ‘hanging out.’ So I manned up. I decided that I wanted to go on one date a week. As things turned out, I went on about three dates a month (on average) for about a year and a half. It was hard. Some were awkward, a few were flops, most were fun, and a few were amazing. I learned a lot about myself, a lot about women, a lot about how to meet new people, and a lot about how to have a relationship with someone. Towards the end of that period I met the woman of my dreams. I knew that she was the girl that I wanted, and I was ready to commit myself to her because I had dated so much. I knew what I wanted, and I knew that I had ‘done my homework’ so to speak. After dating here for a while and giving it some serious thought and reflection, I took the plunge, and asked her to marry me. We got married about six months ago, and I have never been happier in my life. Dating helped me grow, made me a more confident man, and helped me figure out what I wanted in a woman.

I kind of agree with John above. I mean, don’t you have to at least somewhat know the girl before you ask her out? For example, there’s this one girl that I’ve liked for a long time and I can’t work up the courage to ask her out. This article is right. It is the fear of rejection that’s keeping me from doing it. But the article is wrong when it says “nothing has changed. You were dateless before and you’re dateless now.” That’s true, but no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise, the reason she turned you down most probably has something to do with you. And it’s so incredibly depressing wondering what the hell is wrong with you. I’m 17 years old and never had a girlfriend. I am really pissed off. I can’t just ask this girl out. I need to at least know her a little and the best way to do that is to try to hang out with her friends. If you don’t have some kind of friendship with her, she’ll turn you down guaranteed. So, I agree with John above. How do you know when to do it?

I don’t know if it’s too late to save RANdomIZED, but…

“b” said: “Whatever way, the next thing you should do is tell her that you like her.”

NOOOOOO!!!! DO! NOT! DO! THIS! Saying this does nothing to build her attraction for you, rather it would most likely hurt you. As it appears as though she’s been flirting with you, you want to flirt back and continue to build up tension and suspense, both critical elements of attraction. Saying you like her destroys the mystery and you lose power. In doing this, she has won you over and you’re in her pocket. Thus ends the excitement of the prior tension and her increasing interest level, which is building because she doesn’t know how you feel and is becoming more curious about (attracted to) you.

What’s going on should be mutually understood but never outright acknowledged: you’re “into” her and she’s “into” you. So if I were you, I’d dial up the attraction more and, WITHOUT saying upfront that you like her, ask her out on a date. Let her prove herself to you on a date that you should “like” her, rather than her already having your solid admiration.

This is all advice coming more than two months after these posts, so the situation is probably different now. Anyways, RANdomIZED, I hope that however you handled the situation it worked out for the best.

TJMcday09-

I am only 17 and it has occured to me that there are less people wanting to date and more just hanging, the consept of open relationships disgusts me, i have a whole life to live and it would be nice to share this small time with an actuall boyfriend. My boyfriend and i have been dating all this year and I would never want him to change. He is a propper gentleman, not like the rest of the twits of my day. And it had all started from a propper date and not just a hang out. He asked me by a simple question- Do you want to go out on a date? And it was easy as that, he was petrified and i was nervous but we gave it ago. So just pucker up some confidence and go for it!

24 year old woman here. Totally agree with John. Hanging out is more relaxed, so people can be genuine and confident. A socially-savvy mutual friend help can bring out real conversation, whereas it’s almost obligatory with a girl/guy you just met to do the awkward intro-tango: “So.. Bob… what do you do…?” …. “What’s your major?” … “What year are you…?” Dates feel like job interviews, with a lot of dreary small talk and sizing the other person up. That’s not enjoyable, that’s stressful. Dates are a good way to spend time with someone you’re already serious about, but it’s *not* a good way to warm up to a female acquaintance. Also, there’s flexibility with groups: if you find that you get along with a girl particularly well, you can always leave and go somewhere with her or get contact info, whereas you can’t ditch your date to hang out with friends. Hanging out is about being comfortable and genuine and real such that you can better know the other person (and hopefully commit… hanging out is a foundation for commitment, not a substitute) whereas dating is often about doing what social convention dictates just because you “should.”

To Shaun… You’ve clearly missed the point of this website in your posting already. The point is not to get 100x more girls as you so eloquently put it. If you do, I’m sure you’ll find your self esteem is still fairly low as you’ve just succeeded in having 100 meaningless relationships… The point is not to “hook up” but to find someone you can “hook on” to. Being manly is not about sleeping with as many women as you can. It’s about being a man who respects himself and others and finds that woman that he respects as well. Hanging out is great for meeting people initially, but the whole point is that you date someone to find out if the two of you are really compatible, not just to see if you can get into each others pants.

A lot of you make it sound so easy to get a date by just asking. Easier said than done I must say. I’ve said hi to many girls that are just so stuck-up or into themselves that they don’t even acknowledge you when you say hi and smile. Maybe if they weren’t so scared of talking or at showing some interest to men, they would be asked out. And the ones that are friendly that I’ve asked out are already in a relationship. Maybe it’s just a Southern California thing.

I think feminism is a prehistoric concept, significant of a loss of civilization, not improvement. I think we evolved into patriarchy starting from a situation of sexual parity, and we were able to prosper thanks to it.

Having said that, I think women should still be able to pursue a career if they want, but should be encouraged to stay at home. Also bullshit like affirmative action (quotas and so on) needs to go. Also reminding males that they are more productive and intelligent could do wonders for civilization. Science and historical evidence all point to the superiority of the male brain (that doesn’t mean women should be deprived of their chance at trying of course, and also like in everything there are exceptions), a thing that many discouraged (thanks to feminist ideology and indoctrination rampant in this day and age) males may have forgotten.

I think this article has some very good points. I like what Brett and Kate say about how asking a girl out is easy (because it is if you know how), that dates should be simple, and that one of the biggest problems that guys have these days are that most of them are wussies. I also love the slogan “just do it dammit!” One learns most from actually doing things than anything else,
However, I do not believe hanging out is replacing dating. Hanging out is rather just an alternative to dating. Besides, hanging out with a group of guys and girls can really be a lot of fun, more fun than sitting across from a girl you just met wondering what to say, which is what most people end up doing on dates. If you are thinking of asking a girl out on a date, I personally would advise one important thing:
Think of something fun and exciting that has built in conversation. The traditional dinner and movie does not quite fit this description.
Also, I highly recommend you all check out a man by the name of David Deangelo. He has a book and many DVDs devoted to approaching women, dating them, and much more. He has helped me in my relationships with women tremendously. You can visit his website at doubleyourdating.com Even if you are not ready to buy his eBook or DVDs just yet ( which I HIGHLY recommend) at least subscribe to his free e-mail newsletters. The newsletters themselves are extremely useful!
Anyway, I’ll stop sounding like I’m some sort of promotional advertiser, after all, why advertise when your not getting paid for it?
Though I do not see hanging out as something that is replacing dating, I do thank both Brett and Kate for their article, it was a nice read.

I’m a little disappointed that your articles have declined to this. Are we talking about men or boys? Don’t give a boy a hard time for being a boy and Men don’t date because this isn’t 1958. Men either have female friends with which they “hangout” or they have partners with which they have sex. We are adults not boys. Are you lacking men on staff at “The Art of Manliness”? If so, drop me a line, I see if I can tap out a few good “lists” for you.
I don’t mean to be too harsh, but I take the ART part of being a man very seriously.

Thank you for this! It’s SO RARE that I ever get officially asked out on a date. I don’t want to take the initiative because that makes me think that I”m going to have to take the initiative with everything. Also makes me question if he’s all that interested to begin with if he can’t even bother to ask for a date despite the “hinting” and flirting. I love being an independent woman but for heavens sake don’t make me be the man and the woman when it comes to dating.